Those daisy wheels are erratic, kind of like me and a computer. They seem to have been scratched into the boarding on top of the lime wash. Were they found on the framing as well?

I am trying to leave religion, politics and women out of it but don't know it is possible.

The fishes bladder, there are six in one wheel. As stated earlier, I can be a bit erratic with the computer and can't get the copy & paste thing to work, search wikipedia and Eye of Horus, specifically the arithmetic section. What were they worshiping?

Tim

maybe the wheels in the mill are from an OCD geometician that was practicing his tag - but spraypaint and markers were a ways off, so he grabbed his dad's compass on the way to school in the morning?

they hardly look like a rossetta stone to unlock the secret geometry or layout formula of a building.

why would they be on the interior of the siding?

my guess is they have little to do with building, and more to do with potential superstition or some f'ng around by the crew while the boss was chatting with the client.

were some of these used as maker's marks? (not specifically the mill's)

i know of a mark that i branded, etched, and scratched on furniture, some poorly thrown ceramics, and 2 timber frames that i've crafted. i only hope that they receive this much attention a hundred or two hundred years out.

Hi,

In the top photo the daisy petals are set in the 2 basic positions of orientation.

Ken Hume

bmike, Ken, etc:


I know this pagan road I've been traveling on sounds far-flung and like a page right out of the Da Vinci code… I laugh sometimes thinking about carpenters and magic. No doubt my comment that "a carpenter might have been killed by the church for employing it," was a little out there, but I'm trying to chase down assertions I've found that suggest the wheel was a symbol to "ward off evil spirits." This is not my hypothesis, but that of others from England, a country, may I remind us, that was home to the Druids and gave us Stonehenge: a circular design that no one seems to pass off as trivial.

I had no idea we’d find this symbol in America. That's interesting. We also had the Salem Witch Trials: pagan customs were not exactly embraced by everyone. Would a carpenter have felt comfortable scratching a pentagram into a summer beam? Maybe the wheel was dropped b/c carpenters had to learn another way? Maybe not.

I don't see any harm in thinking outside the box on this one. I mean, who really knows about the wheel? It does sound like it's more than just a cute symbol children played with--passed off as a trivial remnant of the past.

"Go and meet him. Offer him curry and beer, sit back, listen and be amazed!" were Marko’s comments (someone from England,) regarding Laurie and the wheel. He must have fairly good reason for saying this.

…………………………………………………..

“and the notion of it being pagan and then dropped - that does'nt make sense. if it was useful the church would have just co-opted it like it did with all the other symbology, sacred dates, festivals, etc. throughout the ages... there'd simply be a pope or a cathedral or a saint inlaid in the circle, and history would have been tweaked and re-written to make sense out of the 12 rings (tribes, apostles, you name it), etc. etc. etc.”
...................................

bmike, I know exactly what you mean. This was the pattern of the church. We still have the Yule log and Christmas is celebrated right around the winter solstice (a pagan holiday). But there were surely a few Pagan custom, symbols and rituals that fell by the wayside for one reason or another.


Here's what I’ve found asserting the wheel was used to ward off evil, etc… again, not my idea.


http://www.obr.org.uk/PDF/OBR_panels.pdf (see pg. 10... Daisy Wheel scratched on a door frame at Cogges. This is to stop evil spirits from entering the building. Note a resemblance to the consecration cross.)

http://www.apotropaios.co.uk/ritual_marks.htm
It appears to have been a general protection against ill-fortune or was deemed a good luck symbol. These 'daisy wheels' are common throughout England and Wales with many examples from Kent, Devon, Shropshire, Powys and Yorkshire. It is likely, however, that they are far more widespread than this.

http://archaeopagans.blogspot.com/2008/06/apotropaic-marks.html
There are some apotropaic daisy-wheel marks in the doorway of the tithe-barn at Bradford-on-Avon.

Laurie will amaze you for sure, but his teachings don't mention symbolism -- pagan or otherwise. It is all architecture, design, carpentry, and geometry.



Guys, the daisy wheel is a way to draw accurately prior to drafting tables and T-squares. It is not magic.



Roger,

It is actually not cumbersome to lay out a building this way. But I don't have time to elaborate right now either...

ob1 -

i don't doubt that the wheel was a symbol, possibly to bring good luck or spirits to the building, builders, or occupants.

what i don't see is that they were useful computers AND something that was divined by nature, god, spirit, or devil.

there are plenty examples of folk symbology running the gamut of luck charm, spirit ward, family seal, etc., etc... (think hex signs on barns, etc.)

so, while i am open to this idea - i don't think these things do both... they may be a geometric cliche, they may even be a derivation of a useful building or layout technique that were used for doing very specific tasks that somehow migrated to 'symbol' and pattern as a catch all, they may be graffiti... but i am suspicious that they are enshrined with too much hidden meaning AND a practical tool at the same time.

perhaps i'm wrong... folk history is a murky thing, as those that control the present can change the past...

Along w/ folk history, I'm sure we all can acknowledge the ancient days of timber framing is also a murky thing. Like Ken has said, "know that we don't know," etc... We don't know a lot about all this.

Given that, I'm not really hoping the wheel is a pagan symbol, but when I saw repeated references that it was used to ward off evil, I started to wonder. A chance web site is one thing, but three web sites makes me think there might just be something to the whole thing. I think it should remain on the table. There might be a connection down the line.

Though I doubt the wheel was created as a simultaneous building aid and "magic device," I do think it's origins are obscure enough to suggest some symbolic reference outside of architecture. Though I really have no idea, I'm willing to believe the wheel as a building aid came second to whatever it might have been before.

As we know, many early cultures built buildings and even whole villages upon templates designed for other, higher purposes in their culture. The pyramids of Egypt were built according to celestial bodies, Mayan temples were constructed to receive the sun on certian dates. The Forbidden City in China was aligned along a strict North-South axis and adhered to the harmonious science of feng-shui. Stonehenge.... and on it goes.

England--and Europe for that matter--was not always a Christian land. It only makes sense-- and I think we should be open to the possibility-- that some pagan influence is to be found in early timber framing design. The "Whetting Bush" is a fine example, in my mind, of a pagan-influenced rather than Christian-based custom associated w/ timber framing.

Something makes me think Germany, etc... the Norse traditions, as the root of attaching a small evergreen at the peak of a frame. I mean England is not known for being the softwood capital of the world. The Norse honored evergreens. Why didn't the English attach an oak to the peak? That's the forest that built their great structures, not spruce, pine and fir.

I'm looking forward to Gabel's upcoming post on what Laurie Smith has said about the wheel, it's origins, etc. And I wonder if Mr. Smith suggested why it fell out of favor as a design tool?

Hi Don,

Who says that daisy wheel design has fallen out of favour ? Only a few weeks ago a small frame was cut and raised at Cressing Temple employing this system.

I have come across a number of articles by Timothy Easton in DBRG News (June 1997 & January 1998) on the topic of apotropaic marks and these articles also make reference to daisy wheels. Timothy states that these are known to have existed as early as the 6th century BC.

Timothy makes reference to some books which might assist the serious student in their investigations in this respect including :-

Merrifield, R. 1987, The Archeology of Ritual and Magic, London, Batsford.

Peesch, R., 1983, The Ornament in European Folk Art, New York, Alpine Fine Arts Collection.

Unfortunatly I have not yet had the pleasure of cruising the pages of either of these books but it has to be stated that both of these books preceed the current research work being undertaken by Laurie Smith in his earnest endeavour to connect the use of symbols with practical application. For example this morning Laurie sent me a note from which I shall quote a brief extract :-

"Leigh Court barn near Worcester has nine cruck trusses and two end walls. According to Michael Peach, the architect in charge of the restoration many years ago, there were few carpenter's marks on this building. He did however, spot a daisy wheel and, having had access to his measured drawings, I discovered that it has a five daisy wheel in line floor plan and daisy wheel truss design. The barn is 33 feet across (exactly 2 medieval rods) and has the biggest cruck span yet discovered."

So it would appear that we now have some fact based evidence that demonstrates that geometry in combination with standard units of measurement were employed in medieval building construction. It is this kind of "evidence based" research that we need to expand upon in order to help us sort fact from fiction.

I have contacted the sectretary of the OBR to establish the basis for the statement made on their exhibition panels and I will report back in due course.

We now need to find some good examples of US frames that have daisy wheels on the frame together with a measured plan and cross section of same for evidence based analysis.

Regards

Ken Hume

Sorry I've not seen this for a couple of days,

my specualtive comments about bored apprentices were a bit glib I suppose but really I was just trying to say that the presence of these marks could be significant but there again quite possibly isn't. As others have said our energies might be better directed at seeing what can be done with this system.

Conan Doyle said, and I paraphrase here, that once you take away the impossible you are left with the actual, no matter how unlikely. Perhaps this should be modified to 'no matter how mundane'!
For my part I really just enjoyed finding out about this method of setting out as I'm a maths dunce and approach things visually.

Hi Marko,

I think that not so many years ago very few people must have been mathematically literate however we do know that geometry (which is very visual) has been around and well practiced for thousands of years so it might well make sense that symbols provide clues about the "actual".

Regards

Ken Hume