I haven't ever heard Laurie speculate as to the origins or potential meaning to the daisy wheel symbol outside what he has been able to demonstrate in terms of it's use as a design aid in specific buildings which he has documented thoroughly. See his articles in TF #70 and #90. Laurie is not a symboligist. Ken, are you familiar with these articles. He has also writted an in-depth study of the geometry of the Barley Barn at Cressing Temple which was given to the students at last years course as part of the study materials.

I've also never heard him speculate as to it's demise, but my thoughts would be that some of the forces at play included: standardization of measurement; the role of the architect becoming separate from the builder and it's subsequient quick development as a separate trade with separate skills/methods, etc.; technology such as improved and readily available rules, graduated squares, tapes, drafting tables, etc; the advent of numbers based systems for manufacturing and building (e.g. the square rule); the publication and widespread use of carpenters manuals and pattern books (beginning in the 18th century) replacing the system of local/regionally specific,inherited knowledge and methods with more or less "standard" practices and standard patterns -- these are just a few off the top of my head.

Hi Gabel:

I may have went too far in suggesting you had heard Laurie Smith speak specifically on wheel origins and its demise. I was going by your comment to Roger Nair: "It is actually not cumbersome to lay out a building this way. But I don't have time to elaborate right now either..."

I guess I was waiting for you to address the use of the wheel and that you might also have remembered some other snippets from Laurie, etc.

Those reasons you cite for why the wheel fell out of favor sound perfectly sensible. And I'm in the process of getting back issues of TF, #70 & 90


Ken,

6th century B.C. for the daisy wheel, wow... that's way before the broad axe! This suggests it's more than just a building-design tool.

Those books would be a great resource to look at. Nice find. You are often mentioning good dissertation subjects on TF. The origin, meaning, etc, of apotropaic marks on frames would no doubt be a fascinating research study and expand on what we “don’t know.”

I’m always curious about the cultures where certain things originate. Too often TF has been examined in terms of frame typology, joinery, etc… but it seems that little has been unearthed about the early culture(s) and their beliefs that actually created these structures—why they built the way they did, not just how. Fact-based reports are likely elusive as indigenous cultures were typically orally based in terms of how teachings were disseminated. Maybe some poetry or songs exist about early European building design ??? Maybe there are paintings on rocks… (Maybe there are wheels scratched into things!)

And that's wonderful that you have access to Mr. Smith. I certainly welcome some facts. Maybe he might even post something here… And also neat to hear the 33' (2 rods width) report. Also interesting to hear you've inquired w/ the folks at OBR regarding my discovery of their words “Daisy Wheel scratched on a doorframe at Cogges. This is to stop evil spirits from entering the building.” Superstition is common among many early cultures who relied on gods and natural events to explain their world. Such superstition was typically woven into all facets of life, dwellings and design being no exception.

This is completely foreign to us today. We plop down homes wherever we please. Economics is often the sole dictator about building orientation: a southerly exposure helps reduce the heating budget, etc. Today, facing the street is much more of a determinant of building orientation than facing Venus in retrograde, or the east wind that may be thought to bring good fortune, etc. I think our modern mindset on this is really quite new to humanity. We are no longer governed by the natural world, its elements and forces.

I think this has been a great topic to shoot back and forth here on the forum.

and lets hope that some builders are forced to take some design / proportion / art classes / integretity counseling - dear god what a world we would live in if your wishes came true... its bad enough with bad architects combining with bad builders. letting either one run rampant - sheesh!

Don't Let me distract from the direction this is going. I am curious if a mathematician can connect the ratio of 1.618 to the daisy wheel? Is there a relation and what is it?

A lot of those changes Gabel mentioned came with the industrial revolution maybe a bit before.

Tim

Hi Don & Gabel,

I have TF no 70 but not 90. Catching sight of this article would be useful.

Laurie tells me that broadband has not yet reached his rural location in Wales and so he sends his apologies for not being able to check in on this forum on a regular basis.

Trees were being cut down and used in buildings long before the advent of the hewing axe. Timber buildings were being constructed in Scotland and Ireland (crannogs) over 3000 years ago just as the iron age roundhouse settlements here in my own village in Hampshire. The axe must be one of the oldest tools with some made from flint, then bronze, then iron.

Regards

Ken Hume

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Golden_ratio

I found my answer, but don't let that stop anyone from commenting. The first joint on your finger, multiplied out 9 times will equal your height, fractals we are.

I think the stone axe would be the oldest, the local natives were using stone axes just 500 years ago. Copper was a used metal as well, not sure of dates.

I should reread 70 and 90, for the umpteenth time.

Tim

Would be nice for members to be able to view TF back issues online (But that would kill sales of the TF CD-ROM I suppose!!)

Laurie Smith on the forum would be a hoot!

Given the 6th century B.C. range, I'd like to ask him what came first: the wheel as a building aid, or was there some other purpose?

Anyone know if the wheel can be used to build crucks?

I think I just answered my cruck question. Been going back over the posts, specif. the one where Ken quotes Laurie Smith:

"Leigh Court barn near Worcester has nine cruck trusses and two end walls. According to Michael Peach, the architect in charge of the restoration many years ago, there were few carpenter's marks on this building. He did however, spot a daisy wheel and, having had access to his measured drawings, I discovered that it has a five daisy wheel in line floor plan and daisy wheel truss design. The barn is 33 feet across (exactly 2 medieval rods) and has the biggest cruck span yet discovered."

So I guess the wheel can be used for more than your standard square-timbered frame.

Re-reading the posts on this thread is something I've found necessary. A lot gets glossed over on the first run-thru...

[/quote]
Guys, the daisy wheel is a way to draw accurately prior to drafting tables and T-squares. It is not magic.
[/quote]

It is not magic, but there is a quality to it which could be construed as such. I am looking at the daisy wheel in three dimensions, a two part tetrahedron, and then multiples of that. The magic happens naturally, it is part to our selves and most things around us. The six fractions, 1/2-1/64th also relate to cell development and the "magic" that happens at this point. Cells are basic circles and when they split they form the tetrahedron sequence and at the 64th multiple signs of life appear or start to form, organs, limbs, us. If we look at it as a 2 dimensional function it is just a way to draw accurately prior to drafting tables and T-squares, and now cad programs.

I am in hopes that it will bring order to the construction process. "The daisy wheel made me do it." Things will then be as they should.

Tim

and forget lasers and ink jets... remember the modern daisy wheel?