and i'll stay away from this can of worms - as it could relate to a whole pandora's box of a discussion about efficiency - one that could involve circular mills, band mills, power tools, computers, chain mortisers, cnc machines, etc. etc. - spread across a grand continuum of what any one builder might deem 'effecient' and how this relates to 'the masters' of that ideal time and space of the 'real' timber framers.

i'd posit that the average framer does what is efficient, the master does what is effective.

Reserve the use of efficient for when you want to imply skill and economy of energy in producing the desired result (: so efficient in her management of the company that layoffs were not necessary).
When applied to people, efficient means capable or competent (: an efficient homemaker) and places less emphasis on the achievement of results and more on the skills involved.

I just copied this from the dictionary, not my words but they fit the meaning I intended.

And under effective.... • impressive; striking : an effective finale.

I am happy in not trying to be impressive or striking, being average is closer to my real goal, as I believe the humble framer strove for.

As the can overflows, where is the efficiency in a cnc machine? The emphasis is placed on the skill of the person involved, the joiner. Or is the cnc machine more effective.

Tim

and i'm much more inclined to these definitions:

# producing or capable of producing an intended result or having a striking effect; "an air-cooled motor was more effective than a witch's broomstick for rapid long-distance transportation"-LewisMumford; "effective teaching methods"; "effective steps toward peace"; "made an effective entrance ...
# able to accomplish a purpose; functioning effectively; "people who will do nothing unless they get something out of it for themselves are often highly effective persons..."-G.B.Shaw; "effective personnel"; "an efficient secretary"; "the efficient cause of the revolution"
# works well as a means or remedy; "an effective reprimand"; "a lotion that is effective in cases of prickly heat"
# exerting force or influence; "the law is effective immediately"; "a warranty good for two years"; "the law is already in effect (or in force)"
# existing in fact; not theoretical; real; "a decline in the effective demand"; "confused increased equipment and expenditure with the quantity of effective work done"
# ready for service; "the fort was held by about 100 effective soldiers"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# Having the power to produce an effect or effects; Producing a decided or decisive effect; Efficient, serviceable, or operative; Actually in effect
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/effective



i was thinking more along the lines of how william mcdonough describes efficient vs. effective.

to break it down into a sentence:
nature is effective, nazis were efficient.

of course, his speech that included this sentiment was far more elegant and involved. perhaps it has jaded my thinking on the 2 words.



and its funny that it is ok for an old timer to have done something to be efficient, making best use of the time and technology available, but we cannot grant that to our peers...


and with that - i'm getting out of this as it will certainly derail into a technology = bad debate.

I misspoke earlier and didn't want to leave it hanging out there. The flattening is limited to 3/10 radius rather than 1/10 diameter. No it does not induce bowing, think about that for a moment and it'll become clear. It does induce checking on that face, usually a good thing.

I did find some interesting reading online from the development of that standard.
This article also contains the section properties chart from the standard;
http://www.robpickettandassoc.com/pdfs/C-CS-Log-Structures-Standard-March-06.pdf
This describes the grading standard that was developed for logs;
http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2006-3/C-CI-Visual-Stress-Grading-March-06.pdf

A couple of reference points might help
Dougfir unsawn- Fb-2050, E-1.6
same #2 sawn round timber beam- Fb- 1400, E-1.6
same #2 B+S 5"x5" and larger timber= Fb-875, E-1.3

It takes roughly a 6-3/4" dia log to get the same "I" as a 6x6 timber..

I talked to a gentleman from a sect that works by hand and does things in the old, and in their mind, better, way. They wanted someone to go on site and erect log homes that they had made in their community. I tried to explain some of this to him. His eyes glazed over and he allowed that they did things the right way. I was eying his round second floor joists. It didn't take a calculator or any statistics. A heel drop on the floor of someones work who does not understand generally suffices.

Hewing of old log home walls here was to allow for plaster and board sheathing later. It was horizontal framing that provided quick shelter. They did not remove the bark from the upper and lower edges even, this does lead to much decay. I've uncovered rotten logs that were subsequently covered by the board sheathing later. They were the same as us, a few understood their work and what they worked with and many didn't care. The work of the worst offenders is long gone.

I think I'll give you folks some much needed time to yourselves.

thanks for the clarification don. makes sense to me. i don't do much with rounds these days - but i have worked with reclaimed barn sleeper sawn into stair parts and various girts.

i'll check out those links.

Mo -- I have for some time owned what I believe is the finest newly made Besigue in existence. ( and perhaps the only recent left handed copy ) I learned Plumb Line ( not using the term French out of respect, what we do is akin, but not entirly true to the French system ) from a Brit who picked up his skills while restoring a windmill in the south of France, he had two Besigues which I made great use of in the many months we worked together. For some years after I looked for a historical copy or a capable smith willing to make one, to no avail.

A former employee ( one of the finest carvers I know, makes his own carving tools ) of mine, saw a friends besigue, and showed up to work a few days later with a copy of his own. He made one for me a few months later, after asking how I wanted it to be and taking measurments ( useing one that is too short is a bit dangerous, we'd probably bleed out in short order if one were to sever their axillary artery ) he kept putting it off, saying he'd get to it, turns out he'd promised my wife a copy to be presented as a birthday gift the day I came home bragging on him and his.

I'll try to put up a picture.

Brian has returned to smithing and metelwork, but still does regular work for me, often replicating iron parts for covered bridge restorations. He just recently fit out a beautiful but abused Swan bevel back with a new socket for a colleague.

He'd be willing to entertain a commission, I'm sure.

Don -- I'd be happy to write the wiki blurb, I am though, uncertain of proper spelling, perhaps Mo might check with his professor on that.

I look forward to pics and dimensions of your besigue. I am always looking for projects in the blacksmith shop. I focus on traditional timber framing tools, and the odd nine million beam hooks.

Guys,
it's Désabout, not desibu, and referenced in the three scribing articles from Timber Framing #76, 77 &78.

Also, there's a discussion on besaigue's going on on the Carpenter's Fellowship website if any of you are members.

Thanks for the heads up! That looks like a great site, with more links to explore. What is the proper pronunciation of "besaigue"? Thanks.

Sorry Will - My doing, when I don't know ( and can't find ) a proper spelling for a word I'd like to use I tend to fall back on phonetics.

Dave - Besaigue ~ Bee-za-gew