Howdy,

There has been some activity on scribing on rounds on here lately. Got me thinkin'. Uhoh.

So you want to build a frame. You have the plans in your head or on paper. Could you not leave the timbers round except where the joinery meets? Sorta like flattening the level areas in scribe.

As far as work goes, it seems like this approach might take a helluva lot less labor.

I could be missing something as usual...

Yes, sure, even in the old frames you can find some areas where this was used. Floor joist were flattened only on the top and the ends were only reduced where they joined into the sills, round poles, rafters as well.

Tim

Some log building companies square the ends of the logs where they will be a square mortise inside the side of another log it's joining. (Some of these aren't always square, some are rectangular, depending on the load.)

I know this because they have asked the software company to make this option available from our tenon function, which it is if you use the correct function and set the parameters correctly.

All this joint work doesn't show as it is on the end of the log and inside the other, so from the outside it looks like round log.inserted into the side of a round log.

The below example is not for going into the side of a horizontal log but the side of a log post. I was just experimenting with the tenon function to create the squared or rectangular end as well as adding a standard tenon.

That other posting got my wheels turning as well Mo. I was thinking the same thing: why not just flatten/square things at the joint locations?

When you say build a frame, you're talking about a TF house/barn right?

I suppose corner posts as well as exterior frame members would also need flattening across any sheathing surfaces, Like Tim pointed to with the old joists and rafters.

So why did the old timers hew all faces of a timber (and create all that extra work?)

Will T. must be able to give us an educated guess. I'm guessing it may have something to do w/ referencing and being able to square/ plumb things... You'd have to at least snap a line down the timber for a reference, right? Maybe that's why just rafters and joists were left semi-round, but wall members and sills/plates were hewn square.

The perimeter of a frame needs "referenceability" square/flat surfaces. Maybe that's why crucks have square members on their exteriors, so everything will come out straight?

hmmmnn...

I guess it would probably be a chore to hew right at joint locations with axes and such, but the chainsaw and slick....

would take some handtooling to get it to look right i guess.

Answered that on the other thread Don - It's not more work it's less, and sapwood is a liability and an invitation for rot, even Cruck blades are hewn flat on all four sides.

It's all has been, and is being done. There are many iterations of joining round work. Esthetics' and familiarity are what drive the chosen method.

Mo - ask your new Sensei at ACBA, there are few other people with the round work chops to be found.

thanks Will...
(bow)

And what the cripes is a desibu?

wait a minute...

So what about the semi-round rafters and joists?

They were left round to save on labor, yes? Plus, doesn't the extra diameter of these semi-round pieces add to their strength?

Though a joist pocket may be only 4 X 5 or so, the cross section of the joist itself may be a full 8 inches, which is nice and strong, sapwood and all. I see many semi-round pieces in old frames.

On the topic of flattening only one side of a log for a joist or rafter for the purpose of producing a nailing surface... I have seen it many times. I should mention however that in examples I've seen it's always been a fairly small flat surface. I believe that if you remove too much from one side of a log then you have too do the same on the opposite side. This having to do with tension/stress within the log. Also, I've read this in one of Jack Sobon's books.
There are many ways to skin a cat but in the end we all cook with water.(whatever that means)

Thane

Yes there is less labor, and there is some strength gained, but this is a double edged sword, such pieces usually fare quite well as purlins, but they are found almost as commonly as joists. When used as groundfloor joists, where they are subjected to the moisture that is perking up out of a dirt floor they oft'times suffer rot problems, sometimes even without a nearby leak, and often not seen in a fully hewn piece right next to it.

A Desibu is a scribe term of French derivation, a detail where the nose of a brace is clipped back so it's shoulder does not have a (somewhat fragile / somewhat dangerous) knife edge.

And they don't have a color in any real sense, this was just a nonsense question floated (and my twisted sense of humor) to see if it might elicit a response - Thanks for asking.

If you google "desibu" you will get some deviant art forms, it makes me wonder?

This round timber also has me wondering about log homes. There is a lot of sap wood on these structures and half of it is exposed to the exterior weather. To rid ones self of any sap wood will help you sleep at night if nothing else, or at least it helps me. Sap wood is a curse we have to live with. I must not leave out the point that many log houses were built with squared up timber, they knew what happens to the sap wood. It is the more fancy modern log homes that leave me suspicious.

Tim

Will

Like many things, the double-edged sword is a point well taken. I had not been aware of sapwood being so rot-prone

The question of sap and rot aside, suppose you do flatten the joint locations on a round wood frame, as Mo originally suggested, making scribe locations flat...was I thinking correctly about the referenceability issue: the perimeter of a frame needs this, etc, and that round stock makes squaring and plumbing (not to mention scribing depth, etc) somewhat unworkable?

I think Chrysler should name their next small car the Desibu

I'd want a blue one.

Perhaps another reason the old timers liked boxed heart timber:

1. no sap (rot)
2. checks and splits will not cross the heart
3. balances any inherent stress w/ in a timber

I googled it too, which wasn't much help.

And Wikipedia doesn't have an entry for desibu.

Maybe it should be added to the TF glossary?

Hey,

Off topic, but sounds a lot like "besigue".

always wanted one of these.



and a hat like that...

Look at the design values for log beams vs timber beams. I'll have to find where I stashed the log code but the log beams have higher base design values if <1/10th the diameter is skimmed off the top. The "chord" of fibers is largely intact vs running out of a squared timber.

Eric Sloane commented that it looked like old time carpenters thought that removing knots strengthened timbers, they had hewed them out of many joists, even though this might not be helping in our view.

i don't think hewing only one side is beneficial... doesn't that incur differential drying? (unless you wanted the timber to crown...) isn't this the the 'sponge that is wet on 1 side' curling up problem? wood likes to equalize - unless you are cutting FOHC from really large trees (or small pieces from smaller logs) - boxed heart would make the most sense to equalize the drying forces and balance out the sapwood to each side of the timber... no?

2 of the barns that i surveyed and moved had 'sleeper' joists for the first floor - hewn 2 sides -top and bottom. bottom was pretty rough - top was 'flat enough' for the floor boards to go down on. the barn we used as a shop had 3/4 rounds in the floor - hewn only on the top, 'flat enough' for the floor above. another large barn in PA we dismantled had pole rafters, but hewn timbers.

i'm not sure if 'the old timers' - masters and ideal builders as some want to hold them up to be - had a consistent system for this. it certainly would seem to vary by region, species available, and size of logs.

Master builder or not I believe it was done, or in this case not done, in the name of efficiency. You don't see round joist in the living area even covered with lath, which brings up a secondary reason for square timber, uniformity in finishing plaster. I have noticed hewn surfaces on timber that was sawn, this was done to bring a fat area into plane. As mentioned before the cellar usually had poles for joist with a lime wash, brighten and assisting in preservation. The humble builder traveling the country side building barns most likely didn't have a calculator to check the statistics of his timber, something else was built in though. Same thing happens today.

Tim

sure. i'd bet that most were making the best of the material on hand, using what knowledge there was about how long, how big, and how far things could go. you wouldn't cut down a 40" tree to make a 6x8. you'd optimize the best you could what the land could give you with what you needed in size.

sometimes this worked out... other times, in terms sizing - it didn't. plenty of undersized timbers, odd joinery, etc. in the barns i've seen. i'm sure there are plenty of examples lost to history as well.

i certainly don't want to piss off ourbarns1 - yes - there were many 'masters' of their craft and they deserve respect and study - but my sense is that people are people no matter when in history one studies their lives or their works, and as there are today folks building to a minimum standard - there were folks then building 'just good enough' with what was available - and this includes how / why they decided to hew, what joinery they cut, etc. etc. etc.

and i'll stay away from this can of worms - as it could relate to a whole pandora's box of a discussion about efficiency - one that could involve circular mills, band mills, power tools, computers, chain mortisers, cnc machines, etc. etc. - spread across a grand continuum of what any one builder might deem 'effecient' and how this relates to 'the masters' of that ideal time and space of the 'real' timber framers.

i'd posit that the average framer does what is efficient, the master does what is effective.

Reserve the use of efficient for when you want to imply skill and economy of energy in producing the desired result (: so efficient in her management of the company that layoffs were not necessary).
When applied to people, efficient means capable or competent (: an efficient homemaker) and places less emphasis on the achievement of results and more on the skills involved.

I just copied this from the dictionary, not my words but they fit the meaning I intended.

And under effective.... • impressive; striking : an effective finale.

I am happy in not trying to be impressive or striking, being average is closer to my real goal, as I believe the humble framer strove for.

As the can overflows, where is the efficiency in a cnc machine? The emphasis is placed on the skill of the person involved, the joiner. Or is the cnc machine more effective.

Tim

and i'm much more inclined to these definitions:

# producing or capable of producing an intended result or having a striking effect; "an air-cooled motor was more effective than a witch's broomstick for rapid long-distance transportation"-LewisMumford; "effective teaching methods"; "effective steps toward peace"; "made an effective entrance ...
# able to accomplish a purpose; functioning effectively; "people who will do nothing unless they get something out of it for themselves are often highly effective persons..."-G.B.Shaw; "effective personnel"; "an efficient secretary"; "the efficient cause of the revolution"
# works well as a means or remedy; "an effective reprimand"; "a lotion that is effective in cases of prickly heat"
# exerting force or influence; "the law is effective immediately"; "a warranty good for two years"; "the law is already in effect (or in force)"
# existing in fact; not theoretical; real; "a decline in the effective demand"; "confused increased equipment and expenditure with the quantity of effective work done"
# ready for service; "the fort was held by about 100 effective soldiers"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

# Having the power to produce an effect or effects; Producing a decided or decisive effect; Efficient, serviceable, or operative; Actually in effect
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/effective



i was thinking more along the lines of how william mcdonough describes efficient vs. effective.

to break it down into a sentence:
nature is effective, nazis were efficient.

of course, his speech that included this sentiment was far more elegant and involved. perhaps it has jaded my thinking on the 2 words.



and its funny that it is ok for an old timer to have done something to be efficient, making best use of the time and technology available, but we cannot grant that to our peers...


and with that - i'm getting out of this as it will certainly derail into a technology = bad debate.

I misspoke earlier and didn't want to leave it hanging out there. The flattening is limited to 3/10 radius rather than 1/10 diameter. No it does not induce bowing, think about that for a moment and it'll become clear. It does induce checking on that face, usually a good thing.

I did find some interesting reading online from the development of that standard.
This article also contains the section properties chart from the standard;
http://www.robpickettandassoc.com/pdfs/C-CS-Log-Structures-Standard-March-06.pdf
This describes the grading standard that was developed for logs;
http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2006-3/C-CI-Visual-Stress-Grading-March-06.pdf

A couple of reference points might help
Dougfir unsawn- Fb-2050, E-1.6
same #2 sawn round timber beam- Fb- 1400, E-1.6
same #2 B+S 5"x5" and larger timber= Fb-875, E-1.3

It takes roughly a 6-3/4" dia log to get the same "I" as a 6x6 timber..

I talked to a gentleman from a sect that works by hand and does things in the old, and in their mind, better, way. They wanted someone to go on site and erect log homes that they had made in their community. I tried to explain some of this to him. His eyes glazed over and he allowed that they did things the right way. I was eying his round second floor joists. It didn't take a calculator or any statistics. A heel drop on the floor of someones work who does not understand generally suffices.

Hewing of old log home walls here was to allow for plaster and board sheathing later. It was horizontal framing that provided quick shelter. They did not remove the bark from the upper and lower edges even, this does lead to much decay. I've uncovered rotten logs that were subsequently covered by the board sheathing later. They were the same as us, a few understood their work and what they worked with and many didn't care. The work of the worst offenders is long gone.

I think I'll give you folks some much needed time to yourselves.

thanks for the clarification don. makes sense to me. i don't do much with rounds these days - but i have worked with reclaimed barn sleeper sawn into stair parts and various girts.

i'll check out those links.

Mo -- I have for some time owned what I believe is the finest newly made Besigue in existence. ( and perhaps the only recent left handed copy ) I learned Plumb Line ( not using the term French out of respect, what we do is akin, but not entirly true to the French system ) from a Brit who picked up his skills while restoring a windmill in the south of France, he had two Besigues which I made great use of in the many months we worked together. For some years after I looked for a historical copy or a capable smith willing to make one, to no avail.

A former employee ( one of the finest carvers I know, makes his own carving tools ) of mine, saw a friends besigue, and showed up to work a few days later with a copy of his own. He made one for me a few months later, after asking how I wanted it to be and taking measurments ( useing one that is too short is a bit dangerous, we'd probably bleed out in short order if one were to sever their axillary artery ) he kept putting it off, saying he'd get to it, turns out he'd promised my wife a copy to be presented as a birthday gift the day I came home bragging on him and his.

I'll try to put up a picture.

Brian has returned to smithing and metelwork, but still does regular work for me, often replicating iron parts for covered bridge restorations. He just recently fit out a beautiful but abused Swan bevel back with a new socket for a colleague.

He'd be willing to entertain a commission, I'm sure.

Don -- I'd be happy to write the wiki blurb, I am though, uncertain of proper spelling, perhaps Mo might check with his professor on that.

I look forward to pics and dimensions of your besigue. I am always looking for projects in the blacksmith shop. I focus on traditional timber framing tools, and the odd nine million beam hooks.

Guys,
it's Désabout, not desibu, and referenced in the three scribing articles from Timber Framing #76, 77 &78.

Also, there's a discussion on besaigue's going on on the Carpenter's Fellowship website if any of you are members.

Thanks for the heads up! That looks like a great site, with more links to explore. What is the proper pronunciation of "besaigue"? Thanks.

Sorry Will - My doing, when I don't know ( and can't find ) a proper spelling for a word I'd like to use I tend to fall back on phonetics.

Dave - Besaigue ~ Bee-za-gew

'Bisaigue' [Biz eye gu] seems to turn up the most hits. I had a go on one last week. Not easy but its weight could make it a cool tool. I was told they were custom made according to the height of the owner.
Not sure where they cross over with a 'Twybil'. Think the twybil was a smaller more pick axe-like tool more for chopping out than for pairing.

Here's the image I said I'd post, no sense in posting dimensions, one should be built to suit the user...

Measure heel of palm to top of shoulder, then add a few inches. Useing one that is too short does hold danger, for yourself, ( I once shredded the armpit of a tee-shirt without realizing what was happening ) One unnecessarily long would require an increase in distance between stations. The paring end is a two inch chisel, the end grain chisel is 3/4's, traditional, but I might have opted for wider.

the intended use is in cutting the long large section pieces in a layup, too heavy to be brought up to horses while standing. A situation which is now (hydraulics and bridge cranes) all but a nonissue -

They do have advantages however, the distance which might seem a disadvantage, is much the inverse, as with a slick you can feel flat, or know through the tool how deep you are bellying. Leverage comes into play also, you can move more wood with less effort, both quickly and accurately.

I would not want to be without one.

Neat post, Will

Neat tool.

I can see how the "no bending over" thing must have been a consideration. Kind of like a long-handled scoring axe.

Something makes me think this tool came out of ship building too. I can almost see the old French shipyards...

Course, that could do double duty: quite a weapon. Handy sidearm during the French Revolution (lol)...