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Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Ken Hume] #21475 10/21/09 05:16 PM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks for coming on board Ken:

to answer your question on speed up of the mill at the end of the cut, well here goes----

depending on the size of the cut ie: (face cut) by this I mean cutting a 6 inch cut versus a maximum cut of 28" would of course produce different cut termination results.


As the saw approaches its final vertical cut the sawyer is fully aware if the water gate is fully open or only partially open--if fully open then there is a tremendous increase in speed and he needs to close the gate immediately to slow down rotational speed, whereas if the equipment is sort of coasting along with a minimal amount of water to affect the cutting action then at times no adjustment is necessary during the final cut.

My method of calculating horsepower is maybe not the most scientific in the world but I believe it gives some approximate results, or results that are in the ball park area.

I was fortunate to have been asked to power a belt drive 1860's shingle saw, by extracting power from the barrel wheel. Now I knew from my experience that to drive this circular bladesaw up to speed and do work with it you would need approx 800 rpm or it would wander in the cut, and the speed needed to be held constant.

I knew before hand that because the rpm's of the barrel wheel being a max of 125 meant that a series of pulleys of proper diameters would be needed to come up with the final 800 rpm's, meaning to me that to just get the shingle saw up to running speed would be a great effort on the part of the barrel wheel.

Now one thing that was sort of questionable in my mind was that the shingle saw also had a cast flywheel which would create power once up to speed, would it be enough to do some work, alittle work, or no work--that was the 64 dollar question.

Anyway we forged ahead with directions from my superiors at that time. I had many misgivings about safety especially of the cast flywheel, Iknew that excessive speeds was quite hazardous and a calmity could result if the operator could not keep the saw from running wild after a cut was finished. to this end a safety brake on the flywheel was installed.

To make a long story short, we were able to cut shingles by allowing the machine to pick up speed do a cut and repeat again.

after this trial period I was asked to cut a large quantity of pine shingles for one of our restoration projects, and to this end we removed the shingle saw and in another location powered it using a massey 35 hp modern engine. Now it made it work and we could cut fairly steadily.

As a final notation to this discussion this same shingle saw was used for many years powered by a 2 horse tread mill, which I operated daily, it actually could saw shingles steadier than the 6 horse power of the Mulley saw mill, but not quite as steady as the massey tractor.

I always wondered why the 2 horse tread mill seemed to have more power than the Barrel wheel.

Any comments out there

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #21495 10/22/09 02:50 PM
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Hi Richard et al,

You might be interested in checking out the following article on a watermill just unearthed on the river Thames at Greenwich.

The article can be found on pages 30-35 in the November 2009 edition of "Current Archeology" magazine. Part of this article can be read on line at :- http://www.archaeology.co.uk/articles/water-power-in-medieval-greenwich.htm

What they don't tell you in the on line version of the article is that the remnants of this Thames water mill have now been dendrodated to 1194 - that's early. The framework discovered employs tusk tenons in the construction. Mud would appear to have amazing preservative properties.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Ken Hume] #21498 10/22/09 03:41 PM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hi Ken and all tonight

Thanks Ken for posting thatlink on the unearthing of the tide mill in your area. It certainly is a spectacular find, and will no doubt rewrite the history books that deal with that subject a little bit for sure.--And we think the tide mills are a modern contrivance!

It does boggle your mind how the historic millwrighting methods of long ago were developed to such a high degree.

By this I mean even today with all our so called equipment and knowledge, and education, if anyone of us were asked to create such machine without the aid of any of our modern tools of the trade, and just given man power, and axes and a few other tools to come up with this finished tide mill, it would be an extraordinary effort.

I had similar requests to construct timberframe structures using only the tools that were availble at the period of construction, and I am going to tell you that every step had to be thought out carefully, and a so called (new\old) solution had to be sought after and found to carry on.

One thing that I will say about refraining from using modern methods, or cutting corners is that you arrive in the end with a finished product that looks very historically correct.

Thanks again Ken and I hope everyone enjoys

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #21499 10/22/09 03:47 PM
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Hello everyone, and just before I leave--


You were mentioning the preservative power of mud, well back a number of years ago I helped my father clean out a dug well of about 30 feet deep, as we removed the layers of silt, what came into view was an oak cribbing of about 8 feet in height , and I must say in perfect condition. This goes along somewhat with what you are referring to and I thought that it needed to be said now, mud will for a very long period preserve wood as long as the oxygen is not present for microbial action.

Also during my time in the restoration reconstruction at UCV my work was overseen by one of the best restoration architects in Canada, his name was Mr Peter Stokes. I asked him the following question in connection with a stone foundation wall needed to support one of my structures. The wall construction was stone and not a problem to reconstruct with the old lime mixtures but the base or the footing was more of a problem. I asked him what was used at that period of time . Hs reply was to lay down thick oak planks and then up goes the wall, which is what we did, and the building stands true today, I reconstructed many buildings using the same technique

NH

Last edited by northern hewer; 10/22/09 03:54 PM. Reason: to add material
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #21515 10/23/09 12:15 AM
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Hi everyone tonight;

Just to carry this thought a bit further, I wonder Ken what you were instructed in regards to footings for those older structures, and the original walls that you have examined, have they stood the test of time?

I was also wondering if the tidal mill was on a (floating) foundation?

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #21517 10/23/09 08:15 AM
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Hi Richard,

The only tide mill that I have examined in detail is at Elling near Southampton. This mill is fully operational and operates at different times in the day corresponding with tidal flows. The foundations are brick and doubtless these will have been modified or altered over the centuries. Mills frequently burn down and so surviving mills are generally a mix originating from different centuries.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Ken Hume] #21522 10/24/09 01:11 AM
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Hi everyone tonight:

Thanks Ken for the reply, I know the reconstruction processes carry on and on, and only stops when technology pushes ahead with something new and the old structures just don't fit into the picture. In our world today the roll over of technology advances is forging ahead at a blurring speed, and even good old structures are dismantled to make way for new advances.

My son who dairy farms here in Ontario has a tough time justkeeping up from year to year with new equipment advances, and health rules which are continuously changing.

There are Tidal mills in operation here in North America but probably do not date back as far as in your area, I expect the technology came from Britain originally. Where there is a significant Tide such as along the coast area in Nova Scotia, harnessing the in and out flowing water is a smart idea.

At UCV our 3 mills are fed from an artificial lake of about 2 acres in size, that has no natural inflowing source. Their combined usage is about 6000 gals per minute, until the gristmill kicks in and runs on steam power, then the combined usage is about 4500 gals per minute.

The lake is replenished during the evening utilizing a 6 foot by 30 feet in length sewage screw pump revolving at 6 rpm. It can nearly keep up with the mill"s water consumption but not quite, it turns out about 4000 gals per minute, and is quite the machine. By that I mean that it sits on two massive bearings on at each end and on a slope of about 10 feet in 30 feet of run. The screw itself sets in a concrete trough and at no place touches the cement surface but runs close enough to cntain the water as it is forced up the incline. There is vertually no wear and can run continuosly with only a smallish electric motor driving it.

Well I must go for tonight hope you all enjoy

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #21525 10/24/09 12:35 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Good morning, speaking of tides check this out. And as a note I believe the term is centripetal not centrifugal force.

http://www.quoddyloop.com/tides.htm

Here locally we can see tides in the the 25'-26' range in the upper part of the Bay of Fundy up to 50' changes.

There is a large push to bring tidal power back in regards of generating electricity. They are also looking at large windmills on floating platforms 20-30 miles of the coast. Which way is technology going? It is advancing Fast, but there is still a connection to the past.

Tim

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: TIMBEAL] #21542 10/26/09 12:49 AM
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Helloeveryone tonight:

Hi Tmbeal since you posted the last entry, and I am curious about the centrifugal and centripetal correction.

As Isee it centripetal is a violent force moving towards the centre, and centrifugal is the reverse, if I used an incorrect term I appologize.

I have witnessed the huge tides in the bay of fundy, and the reversal of the flow of I believe the St John river there, but I might be corrected,-- a great force if it could be harnessed.

With modern technology advancing like it is you would think that harnessing this tidal bore would be a piece of cake.

well here we are wandering off subject again I am goingto try and get things steered back on line.

I am going to put this subject out to see if any constructive thoughts will (centripetal) in.

--MULEY MILL-- STYLES OF SETTING UP THE LOG--

taking into account the old wooden saw frames have no modern conveniences to move the log around preparing it for each saw cut, do you think that you would flatten only one side and after rolling the log on its flat side then cut right straight across edging the boards as a final gesture.

Or would you square the log all around and then cut the square edged boards or planks edging all the boards from the squaring process in a final cut?

Which way would give you the better quality boards, and whichway would give you the wider common cut boards with the least waste

And finally which waywould be the fastest, and the most profitable, and best use of your water supply?

OK--lets hear what you have to say on this scenario that has just been passed along down the line from the lead sawyer who is trying to train you as a new recruit to operate this mill----good luck and I hope you make it

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #21547 10/26/09 02:28 AM
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Richard it was nothing you said, it was in the link I posted, to which I referred. I will look into it in more depth.

As for turning logs on the carriage after cutting the first face, what modern conveniences do you allude to?

I would say it depended on what the boarding was going to be used for.

Did they have an edger of some sort to trim the flitches with? They could have used some with live edges. This would have allowed faster sawing of the log, but in part, limited the use of the lumber.

I can almost see it as today using s4s 2x or finished boards and being left out to hang when we need to use rough cut lumber, it is less refined, some people just don't know what to do with rough lumber. Could the same be said for live edge flitches? You have more options with a live edge but one needs to handle it differently. It is even less refined.

I can see them doing it both ways.

Tim

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