Clark -

How much information are you providing?

I've had drawings snagged and shared around. I used to send VRMLs (out of HSB) and multiple iso views, and the occasional SketchUp file.

Currently I send just 1 or 2 iso views, maybe an interior, in PDF on titleblock. Fairly hard to timber count from, and I tend to set them in perspective so the scale gets skewed. No dimensions or piece sizes. Definitely no joinery.


After I get comfortable with folks I might share a SketchUp or 3d solids model. Usually after they are on board with the price and we may be finalizing a contract.

Lots of 'shopping' going on this past year or two for sure, and not just from framer to framer - but from designer to designer and builder to builder.


IMHO if someone shops and finds a cheaper deal using my sketch - well, good luck - and its probably better that we part ways early on as opposed to down the road and then dealing with owner's regret for not choosing someone else. Its very hard to bid apples to apples - so someone who doesn't want to work with me solely on price... well... go to WalMart and get your timber frame.


But, I feel your pain. Sorry to hear you are on the short end. Most folks need the work now - so I won't say 'Tell em good riddance...' - but it might raise some red flags. I'd have a chat with the client and see whats driving it. If they are simply being sure of their choice by having a 3rd party keep you honest - well - that's a bit a given in a down economy (not much different then playing 1 car dealer off the other, or 1 supplier off the other... to get the best price)... but if they are truly shopping and taking advantage of you - you'll have to sort out what to do. The language they use to discuss and describe what they are doing will be a good sign of how future conversations will go...

Just 2D exports of the 3d model. So you're right in that they won't have a material list or joinery. They will see all the choices I made regarding trusses and bents, etc. No calls from other framers so far...

I think in helping them visualize a design with some sketches would be considered 'marketing' and an investment you would make upfront. Should those drawings be turned into a detailed plan that someone paid for it would become the property of the purchaser based upon T&Cs.

I see plans on the net from reputable framers allowing the purchase for a 1 time construction etc. This is different than paying for a custom design and all associated time for the custom design. In the latter case I would expect the design to become property of the purchaser.

I always appreciate your posts Clark but honestly I think it may be best to let this go as a lesson learned. When providing a preliminary drawing dont provide any dimensions or timber sizing etc. If the customer needs that level in a printout or file there is no reason a deposit could not be provided for the design effort to date.

Dont want to sound harsh here in tough economic times...but you provide PREMIUM service and hopefully they will come back and recognize the value in working with a top notch company

Did they do an unethical thing? Hard to say based on what is going on in their mind. Some people live by the letter of the law, others based upon sound moral principles.

I like to put a watermark that says "This design is the property of HBTF" across the drawing in a difficult to white out place.

None of us like the thought of a potential client handing over our drawings that we spent half a day or more on (and which they really like) to a "less creative" framer so he can use it to undercut me on my own design which he could never have come up with on his own. And yes, it is unethical, Bruce. Did they know it? Maybe not. I don't think people always realize the work we put into this kind of thing.

And Mike, it isn't really much at all like comparing prices on commodities or other standardized products from two vendors. There is no custom design involved in that.

But I do realize that the potential client may view it that way. That's why we need to explain that what we are showing them took several hours of highly skilled time and years of experience to be able to produce, and that we value it highly and expect them to, as well, by keeping it to themselves.

"We are sharing these drawings with you at this point -- before you have hired us -- for two reasons. First, we are providing this information in order to communicate what we are proposing to design and build for you, based on the conversations we have had about your project. And secondly, we believe that these preliminary drawings will help illustrate the skill we will bring to the design process of this project. We feel like we have developed a creative design concept that will meet your needs and in return for sharing this with you, we only ask that you consider this proposal and the accompanying design work confidential."

Another way to handle it is to show them the drawings, but don't hand them over. I've done this before when I knew I was dealing with a client who was talking to several other people and what they wanted required some creative problem solving. I met with them and went over some preliminary drawings and a proposal and then explained that I wasn't going to leave the drawings with them and why. I can't say they were happy about it, because I just knew they wanted to pass it out like candy to several other firms, but they understood and we got the job. I think we got the job because the other guys couldn't figure out an easy way to do the work given the constraints. If I had shared my prelims, I am sure we would have been undercut by someone else.

Gabel -

I agree that it is apples and oranges comparing commodity items to custom TF design... hence my suggestion at stepping away from these folks. They obviously don't see the value in what Clark is offering... and are treating it as a shopping expedition.

But - $$$ is a huge motivator. I drove by an entry that I designed a few years ago. The commercial builder went cold after I submitted PDFs and pricing. 'Project just withered' they said. I'm not sure who built it - but that damned thing was 90% of what I drew - and looked nothing like the hair brained sketch from the architect. (aside from the insistence on glue lams instead of solid timber)

Should I have tracked em down and sued? Over an 8.5" x 11" sketch I did as a pricing exercise? Maybe. How much $$ would it have cost? How much could I have recouped?

In most other cases where I've done a highly creative design I've never lost a client. Competence and creativity sell work. Skill and follow through back it up. For the average homeowner looking to get a deal on their timber frame package... I think most of this discussion would be lost on them. If they are 'looking to deal'... they might as well be looking to take a hike.


I like the suggestion of not leaving drawings. Very nice way to handle it assuming you can always meet face to face. And if you know up front that you are being bid out...

I'm not in any of your position, but it makes me wonder how you guys deal with "tire kickers". It obviously takes work to get to know a potential client, go through their wants, needs, and details, to come up with a prelim design. That costs time and work. Theoretically you should be paid for that work, but on the other hand it might be like fishing for Crappies. Set the hook too hard, and you'll lose them for sure. But again, I wonder how you keep people from wasting your time. On the other hand, the less they know about the trade, the more they are going to try to competitive quote, which is what I'd try to do. I don't envy your position on this, but an interesting discussion.

Hi,

I suppose one way to head of any confusion about ownership and onward use of drawing content would be to issue a prospective customer with a secured.pdf of the conceptual or preliminary design in which the file security options are set to prevent data extraction and drawing printing. An additional page outling ownership, contact details, etc could be added to the *.pdf such that any persons subsequently being issued with the file would be in no doubt about ownership of the intellectual property contained within and maybe even a short project history sheet containing any caveats about payments needing to be made in the event that this material is used for onward design development.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken -- I really like that idea. I haven't done it before, but I will definitely look into it.

Brad -- your crappie fishing analogy has me chuckling. I suppose sales in our trade can be a bit like trolling for papermouths.

Locks (and laws) keep honest people honest... so as much as I like Ken's suggestion of some sort of secure pdf... if you hand over prints to someone there is no reason they cannot photocopy / crop whatever they want in order to have someone else bid it... and in the end - folks who want to cheat / shop / etc... will do so, regardless.

I'm curious - for the average customer, assuming a typical frame design - would you back up the secure PDF / copyright / guard dog with legal action if they were 'shopping'? Or would you invoke the lawyers only if someone built your design (and knew about it, and could prove it)?

I could see this for commercial work / creative work / design competition - but how unique would your work have to be to make it worthwhile to go after it in the courts? I'm thinking about barn frames or the typical NE timber frame...

Laws need teeth behind them to make them work - and in these instances they need lawyers and courts to sort it out. And honest people will see your notes and verbage and keep it legit. Folks who are wheeling or dealing... well - maybe not so.

Regardless, it doesn't change the 'suck' factor when this happens.

Hi Mike,

I think that what I am suggesting is to try and move the responsibility to prevent an unscrupulous customer taking advantage of intellectual property for which he has not yet paid from that miscreant and bring it back to within the timber framing community. I am sure that where another timber framer saw and recognised a set of copyright drawings that they would bring this to the attention of the copyright holder and seek further advice before proceeding.

I agree that its probably impractical to get involved in suing potential customers and instead maybe a code of practice might work better.

Regards

Ken Hume