Say a prospective client walks into your office and shows you a set of plans with your competitor's logo on it, and asks you to bid the project. Times are tough, and you need the job. What do you do?

To me, if the client has the plans, he/she has likely paid for them. I for one would not give out drawings to client unless they pay me for design services up front.
If you know the competition and are on good terms with them..well, it's a difficult toss. Just keep in mind "what goes around... comes around".

Thane

I recommend calling the designer and asking him/her what's up, and especially, have they been paid in full. If not, bad things can happen to you and the client if the plans, or even parts of the plans, are built from.

Plus, it's the right thing to do. Clients come and go, and should never be encouraged to game the system. Your timber framer colleagues will be in your universe a lot longer.

I'm actually on the short end of this stick. I prepared the drawings, and the client is now shoping them around. I'm curious how many of my competitors will ask who owns the plans. I don't usually charge for preliminary design work - I consider that part of sales and marketing. Perhaps I'm being naive there. The plans are low-res, and preliminary, but still represent a significant amount of time and skill. CB.

Sorry to hear that Daiku. Do you have in the "information" section of your drawings something along the lines of "Property of Northern Lights"?. Or maybe an agreement before hand to have the design inclusive if you build, but if you don't build they must be bought? Interested in your thoughts on this.

I don't think you're being naïve. I do think it's important to make it clear to potential clients that design work, even at the preliminary phase, has value and is protected by copyright.

In most jurisdictions, clients are buying the right to build once from a set of plans. Shopping preliminary plan sets around whether they have your name on them or not really just doesn't smell quite right.

At this point we can only hope that your colleagues have a sufficiently mature moral sense to pick up the phone and give you a call.

I think I know Guild members well enough to be able to predict that nearly all of them would do that without a second thought.

Comments?

I have a copyright notice on them. And when the client told me what he was up to, I explained to him that it was "unfair" to allow my competitors to bypass the preliminary design, and potentially underbid me because of that. I did not get upset with him, however, as I still hope to win the job. I'm just hoping that he gets some push back on the other end.

I've been on the other side of this, and I did the right thing: I called the person that made the plans, and make sure everything was above board.

I'm not sure about asking them to pay for the plans if they don't build. I don't like the idea of asking them to commit any funds before they find out what the frame cost will be. That's the point of these preliminary drawings is to get to a point where we can fix a price to it. I'll definitely be more clear in the future about "fair use" of the drawings before I hand them over. CB.

I'm not really suggesting that they should pay for preliminary design work.

I recognize that that can be a powerful sales tool, Especially given your facility would sketch up.

However, none of us think it's appropriate for your competitor to benefit from your sales efforts in design. In the moral world he should at the very least be offering to compensate you for your design time in the event that he wins the job away from you, by virtue of having a bigger humdinger or fancier office, or whatever turns their heads.

Years ago Tedd Benson and Jeff Arvin helped the Business Council write what I think is a really nice code of conduct, and you should be able to find it on their website. timberframe.org

It might be a good thing to hand out to prospective clients on their first visit when you belong to the TFBC or not.

Wow - high traffic and quick for this thread.

For the same reason the answer to this question is easy to find in good times, it is much the same, maybe more so in tough times.

I am shopping much the same as they are, shopping for someone I can work with. And it goes without saying that that would be someone who thinks they can work with me. (and is perhaps looking for something unique that I can bring to the table) This is just paramount for me.

I can think of little worse than entering an arrangement with someone who may prove to be difficult to work with (as you know building is high stress for many, and tends to amplify their shortcomings) and has exemplified it from the beginning by showing their own lack of ethics by going tire-kicking with a design they have failed to pay for. Or worse yet, perhaps is using the recession to get someone to cut their frame for cost, because they are smart enough (and have the financial wherewithal in this credit driven downturn) to know there are many trades out there scrambling for anything to keep their people busy.

I do know I’ve lost potential work in the past just by asking the “Do you own this design” question. It has though, also gotten me work, (folks aren’t always aware of their faux pas) When we’ve used an uninteresting set of stock plans as a springboard to begin real conversation about what they really wish to build.

And I do find that most don't balk at the suggestion that they should expect to pay for good design and the time it takes.

Some time ago I read through the case of T-Peg vs. Vermont Timber Works. This thread led me to recall the case and take a look at the outcome in District Court (September 2009). I believe it's the only case involving the Architectural Works Copyright Protection Act (AWCPA) that has been tested to this extent.

T-Peg vs Vermont Timber Works

Sounds like a lot of time with lawyers . . .

Clark -

How much information are you providing?

I've had drawings snagged and shared around. I used to send VRMLs (out of HSB) and multiple iso views, and the occasional SketchUp file.

Currently I send just 1 or 2 iso views, maybe an interior, in PDF on titleblock. Fairly hard to timber count from, and I tend to set them in perspective so the scale gets skewed. No dimensions or piece sizes. Definitely no joinery.


After I get comfortable with folks I might share a SketchUp or 3d solids model. Usually after they are on board with the price and we may be finalizing a contract.

Lots of 'shopping' going on this past year or two for sure, and not just from framer to framer - but from designer to designer and builder to builder.


IMHO if someone shops and finds a cheaper deal using my sketch - well, good luck - and its probably better that we part ways early on as opposed to down the road and then dealing with owner's regret for not choosing someone else. Its very hard to bid apples to apples - so someone who doesn't want to work with me solely on price... well... go to WalMart and get your timber frame.


But, I feel your pain. Sorry to hear you are on the short end. Most folks need the work now - so I won't say 'Tell em good riddance...' - but it might raise some red flags. I'd have a chat with the client and see whats driving it. If they are simply being sure of their choice by having a 3rd party keep you honest - well - that's a bit a given in a down economy (not much different then playing 1 car dealer off the other, or 1 supplier off the other... to get the best price)... but if they are truly shopping and taking advantage of you - you'll have to sort out what to do. The language they use to discuss and describe what they are doing will be a good sign of how future conversations will go...

Just 2D exports of the 3d model. So you're right in that they won't have a material list or joinery. They will see all the choices I made regarding trusses and bents, etc. No calls from other framers so far...

I think in helping them visualize a design with some sketches would be considered 'marketing' and an investment you would make upfront. Should those drawings be turned into a detailed plan that someone paid for it would become the property of the purchaser based upon T&Cs.

I see plans on the net from reputable framers allowing the purchase for a 1 time construction etc. This is different than paying for a custom design and all associated time for the custom design. In the latter case I would expect the design to become property of the purchaser.

I always appreciate your posts Clark but honestly I think it may be best to let this go as a lesson learned. When providing a preliminary drawing dont provide any dimensions or timber sizing etc. If the customer needs that level in a printout or file there is no reason a deposit could not be provided for the design effort to date.

Dont want to sound harsh here in tough economic times...but you provide PREMIUM service and hopefully they will come back and recognize the value in working with a top notch company

Did they do an unethical thing? Hard to say based on what is going on in their mind. Some people live by the letter of the law, others based upon sound moral principles.

I like to put a watermark that says "This design is the property of HBTF" across the drawing in a difficult to white out place.

None of us like the thought of a potential client handing over our drawings that we spent half a day or more on (and which they really like) to a "less creative" framer so he can use it to undercut me on my own design which he could never have come up with on his own. And yes, it is unethical, Bruce. Did they know it? Maybe not. I don't think people always realize the work we put into this kind of thing.

And Mike, it isn't really much at all like comparing prices on commodities or other standardized products from two vendors. There is no custom design involved in that.

But I do realize that the potential client may view it that way. That's why we need to explain that what we are showing them took several hours of highly skilled time and years of experience to be able to produce, and that we value it highly and expect them to, as well, by keeping it to themselves.

"We are sharing these drawings with you at this point -- before you have hired us -- for two reasons. First, we are providing this information in order to communicate what we are proposing to design and build for you, based on the conversations we have had about your project. And secondly, we believe that these preliminary drawings will help illustrate the skill we will bring to the design process of this project. We feel like we have developed a creative design concept that will meet your needs and in return for sharing this with you, we only ask that you consider this proposal and the accompanying design work confidential."

Another way to handle it is to show them the drawings, but don't hand them over. I've done this before when I knew I was dealing with a client who was talking to several other people and what they wanted required some creative problem solving. I met with them and went over some preliminary drawings and a proposal and then explained that I wasn't going to leave the drawings with them and why. I can't say they were happy about it, because I just knew they wanted to pass it out like candy to several other firms, but they understood and we got the job. I think we got the job because the other guys couldn't figure out an easy way to do the work given the constraints. If I had shared my prelims, I am sure we would have been undercut by someone else.

Gabel -

I agree that it is apples and oranges comparing commodity items to custom TF design... hence my suggestion at stepping away from these folks. They obviously don't see the value in what Clark is offering... and are treating it as a shopping expedition.

But - $$$ is a huge motivator. I drove by an entry that I designed a few years ago. The commercial builder went cold after I submitted PDFs and pricing. 'Project just withered' they said. I'm not sure who built it - but that damned thing was 90% of what I drew - and looked nothing like the hair brained sketch from the architect. (aside from the insistence on glue lams instead of solid timber)

Should I have tracked em down and sued? Over an 8.5" x 11" sketch I did as a pricing exercise? Maybe. How much $$ would it have cost? How much could I have recouped?

In most other cases where I've done a highly creative design I've never lost a client. Competence and creativity sell work. Skill and follow through back it up. For the average homeowner looking to get a deal on their timber frame package... I think most of this discussion would be lost on them. If they are 'looking to deal'... they might as well be looking to take a hike.


I like the suggestion of not leaving drawings. Very nice way to handle it assuming you can always meet face to face. And if you know up front that you are being bid out...

I'm not in any of your position, but it makes me wonder how you guys deal with "tire kickers". It obviously takes work to get to know a potential client, go through their wants, needs, and details, to come up with a prelim design. That costs time and work. Theoretically you should be paid for that work, but on the other hand it might be like fishing for Crappies. Set the hook too hard, and you'll lose them for sure. But again, I wonder how you keep people from wasting your time. On the other hand, the less they know about the trade, the more they are going to try to competitive quote, which is what I'd try to do. I don't envy your position on this, but an interesting discussion.

Hi,

I suppose one way to head of any confusion about ownership and onward use of drawing content would be to issue a prospective customer with a secured.pdf of the conceptual or preliminary design in which the file security options are set to prevent data extraction and drawing printing. An additional page outling ownership, contact details, etc could be added to the *.pdf such that any persons subsequently being issued with the file would be in no doubt about ownership of the intellectual property contained within and maybe even a short project history sheet containing any caveats about payments needing to be made in the event that this material is used for onward design development.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken -- I really like that idea. I haven't done it before, but I will definitely look into it.

Brad -- your crappie fishing analogy has me chuckling. I suppose sales in our trade can be a bit like trolling for papermouths.

Locks (and laws) keep honest people honest... so as much as I like Ken's suggestion of some sort of secure pdf... if you hand over prints to someone there is no reason they cannot photocopy / crop whatever they want in order to have someone else bid it... and in the end - folks who want to cheat / shop / etc... will do so, regardless.

I'm curious - for the average customer, assuming a typical frame design - would you back up the secure PDF / copyright / guard dog with legal action if they were 'shopping'? Or would you invoke the lawyers only if someone built your design (and knew about it, and could prove it)?

I could see this for commercial work / creative work / design competition - but how unique would your work have to be to make it worthwhile to go after it in the courts? I'm thinking about barn frames or the typical NE timber frame...

Laws need teeth behind them to make them work - and in these instances they need lawyers and courts to sort it out. And honest people will see your notes and verbage and keep it legit. Folks who are wheeling or dealing... well - maybe not so.

Regardless, it doesn't change the 'suck' factor when this happens.

Hi Mike,

I think that what I am suggesting is to try and move the responsibility to prevent an unscrupulous customer taking advantage of intellectual property for which he has not yet paid from that miscreant and bring it back to within the timber framing community. I am sure that where another timber framer saw and recognised a set of copyright drawings that they would bring this to the attention of the copyright holder and seek further advice before proceeding.

I agree that its probably impractical to get involved in suing potential customers and instead maybe a code of practice might work better.

Regards

Ken Hume

Mike,

I would not sue. It would be an absurd waste of my energy, time, money, and life. The larger issue for me is not intellectual property or protecting my rights. I am just trying to keep someone from wasting my time and then handing the work I've just done for free for them to someone else to give them a headstart against me while I wonder what just happened.

Right off the bat, they can be cheaper because they get to quote something without having to 1) meet with the client and have a detailed conversation about the project, 2) turn that into a design concept, or 3) draw the concept in such a way as to be presentable to the client. They are several hundred dollars ahead of me right out of the gate -- all because of the free work I just did. That's what gets my goat.


That's why I like the idea of putting a "fence" up. If someone strolls into my yard, that's one thing, but if they jump my fence in order to do that, that's another. Fences do keep honest people honest, but they also keep the laziest dishonest people looking for an easier mark.

Securing the pdf may be more of a psychological barrier that reminds the average person that what is in that file is not for them to go sharing around with other companies. I'm sure someone with more chops than me could easily hack it, but that's not really the point. Actively dishonest people are not really what this thread is about. All you can do about them is try like crazy to avoid them.

Agreed. We are on the same page, just using different language to get there.

Fences and filters are good in this biz. If you've got a feeling in your gut - stick with it. It is likely not to let you down.

I would almost feel honored if someone took a preliminary drawing and build it. When I drove by it I could say to myself I was part of that and it only took 2 hours.

As time with a client advanced I would know I had the job before I invested too much time which was then lost. I either have a partial payment or I "know" what the outcome will be. There is always exceptions where thing just don't go the way anticipated. Sometimes you just have to let things go.

I am sure I live in a different environment building wise than most. Less competition, a smaller population to name a few. If a client was to shop here in my area I know who the work would be going to and would welcome the work any which way it went. I have seen larger companies come into the area from away, I would rather see it go to my local competitor. I typically build with in a 40 mile radius.

Just a few thought on this. The court system is the pits.

I am drawing with pencil and paper as you all know, too. And recently I have added the compass/dividers.

Tim

Not really on the same topic but having to do with a client. How would you feel if you sawed almost all the timbers on your sawmill and cut all the joinery for a very large barn/home and then saw on your client's website that the barn was constructed by him and his family and friends.

I agree with you Ken. And like Mike says: it's impractical to keep folks that want to cheat from cheating. And the client really may not know any better. But other framers should. I'm hoping that the framers who get to see my drawings will realize what's happening, do the right thing, and give me a call. Nothing yet, though. Meanwhile, I'm fairly confident things will go my way in the end. CB.

I agree that clients unknowingly will shop plans from another shop. I also know that some builders will knowingly shop drawings by cutting of title blocks and other identifying markings. I get around most of this by adding a big fat ugly non removable water mark diagonally across the drawing with the company name. They can then shop but the other timber frame company's will know where the drawings came from and can call. IF I get a set of timber frame drawings from a prospective client and know or feel that they belong to another company I call them and ask if #1 if the client ones the rights to shop around or #2 can they buy the rights. If the answer is no then I tell them that we can design a frame from scratch using our own design ideas or they can go somewhere else. Most folks are understanding and are grateful that they are dealing with a company with ethics. One of our competitors ended up in a law suit over copyright issues. I don't know how it ended up but I'm sure that is was expensive after the lawyers were finished.

I agree with what bmike says, it's good to develop your gut instincts. Very valuable tool.

Well I guess I would take it to mean that the owner considered me his friend.

Client equals Pay. Friends probably saved him/her money. Cool..

Still thinking about this thread. What if we could sketch it for them in 5 minutes? Sketching is a valuable tool. I would like to be better. still practicing.

Mo,

Which is more valuable -- 5 minutes of highly skilled time or 2 hours of fumbling around?

Now you've got me chuckling. Very few would have looked at it from that perspective

I have a good one.. made me think of this thread...
A couple of years ago I sent my model to a local TF co. for a quote on direct glazing our cruck prow and possibly supplying us with cruck material. Nothing came of it as they were out to lunch on the glazing part and had no sources for crooked trees..
Fastforward a couple of years, I stumble across their site and lo and behold!...their new project has one of our feature pcs incorporated into otherwise boring multi million $$ home.
Those who are familiar my project know that only two mad minds could come up with that particular design (love ya' Mark ) and it does not fit in with the co's past portfolio.
I'm not talking a curvey brace, kingpost, or hammer beam either (they have plenty of those behind their belts) it's a VERY particular cruck arrangement.
Thought I'd run this by the TF ethics committee and see what you think

Have you contacted them to see what's up? At the very least, you might be able to get them to give you some credit on the design idea...

But with what you are describing, that is how styles were developed in the past. Some mad man came up with a new way of doing things, and other copied. Before you know it, you got a new style.

I guess what I am saying, I don't see a whole lot of problem with them using your idea, so long as they are willing to give you credit for it and not outright lie and say it's their own. In fact, perhaps you should be honored that others got inspiration from your ideas.

Personally, I have shared my ideas regarding things like infill and enclosure in the hope that someone else will get inspiration from it, and use these ideas. My aim is to better the industry, not to make a million bucks for myself and hoard my 'intellectual property' (a 100% modern idea)

sorry for the ramble, I do that some times!

DLB

As they say "Imitation is the sincerest for of flattery", but a little acknowledgement for the design (and perhaps a nominal design fee) would be nice. I agree on the issue of intellectual property and would be tempted to register the design with one of the open source depositories to keep them from going after anyone that chose to 'copy their design'.

Yeah, it's fine for them to take inspiration from your design and use it, after all it's not patented or anything, but it's bad karma not to acknowledge and give you a shout out, frwinks. If I were in their position, I'd be more than happy to give credit, in fact I'd feel downright dirty/lowdown/scummy not to. Why would you not unless you had a big ego to feed or wanted people to think you were something you weren't? But I don't have access to their mind so I can't say for sure...

I just found it funny...and a lil' flattering as well
I guess pressing out hammerbeam frames all day long can get pretty boring after a while eh?

DL, I'm all for reviving the cruck construction...and all free forms of TF construction. The NA TF market seems to be confined to rectilinear designs..what fun are those??

Do you have a pic frwinks? Also, what did you mean by glazing? I'm not familiar with that term other than windows.

face glazing is basically a glass curtain wall attached directly to the TF. Simon explains is much better here:

http://www.blackpig.me/Black_Pig/Glazing_Systems/Glazing_Systems.html

I'll get more into it on my thread once we get the glass in