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#22170 - 01/06/10 11:44 AM REMOTE system
frwinks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
I haven't seen this system discussed on here before. It seems like a much more user friendly (and perhaps more efficient) than SIPS and a good fit for TF.
CCHRC has done a great job on putting a lot of info/details into this doc...worth a read cool

http://sustainable.cchrc.org/docs/REMOTE_Manual.pdf


Edited by frwinks (01/06/10 11:45 AM)
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#22172 - 01/06/10 05:02 PM Re: REMOTE system [Re: frwinks]
TIMBEAL Online   content
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: Maine
It look to be a well presented form of "wrap and strap". I use a very similar method on most of the building I do which need insulating.

I am working on one now with 2" thick vertical planks as the interior and screw base. It is a plank house with almost no post or braces. Geometrically designed as well, a two daisy wheel kissing base.

Tim

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#22188 - 01/08/10 12:18 PM Re: REMOTE system [Re: TIMBEAL]
frwinks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
Hope you can post some pics Tim...sounds verrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting cool

back to the REMOTE...after an initial call to the building dept... looks like it's going to be a fun ride trying to get this approved :whistle same 'ol story... if it's too efficient... it gets the official axe
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#24616 - 10/18/10 02:28 PM Re: REMOTE system [Re: frwinks]
frwinks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
Here it is....a slightly modified version of the REMOTE for TF.
-2x4 curtain walls, screwed to the frame with 6" panel screws,
-layer of 3.5" IKO Enerfoil (seams acoustisealed and taped),
-second layer of 2" IKO Enerfoil (seams taped),
-1x4 rough pine strapping
-siding.

The roof
-random 1x pine roof decking,
-two 4" layers of Dow Deckmate (seams taped),
-typar,
-vertical layer of 2x4's (on flat) screwed into 4x10 dougfir rafters with 12" panel screws
-horizontal layer of 2x4's (on flat) toenailed to first layer and screwed around perimiter with 14" panel screws,
-steel roof.
I omited the structural wall sheathing and VB as the construction and materials I chose in this case permited to do so.
Defenitely not SIPS fast, but for the price/performace this system offers, there isn't anything that can match it IMO.
Since the system is "too far" out there (I was told) and not covered in "the" book, it was easier to have the idea stamped by PEng. and carry on with life grin




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#24618 - 10/18/10 07:47 PM Re: REMOTE system
dbailly Offline
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Registered: 02/18/09
Posts: 8
Loc: Berkshire County MA
Frwinks,

First off nice building. Congrats. It must be nice to know you're dried in for the winter. How does the remote wall terminate at the foundation? Did you pour an extra thick wall or does the wall overhang the foundation? I'm currently in the beginning stages of planning a Barn with a In-Law apartment above and would like to not use Sips. This system might be the ticket. How were the costs compared to Sips? And, should I start talking with my Local Building inspector now?

Good luck with the rest of the project.

Dan

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#24665 - 10/27/10 01:35 PM Re: REMOTE system
frwinks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
thanks Dan.
In my case, the foundation wall was already there, the tiberframe was designed around the existing footprint. Portion of the curtain wall/foam/strapping/siding all overhang the foundation, about 9". I wrapped the entire foundation with 4" R20 of XPS, which reduced it down to about 5" overhang.
I recommend getting the PEng. stamp for a project like this. What they say goes, they're above the law smile It'll make the journey much more enjoyable.. lol
The quote I got for roof Sips alone was over 20K, I don't think I have half of that in roof/walls/floor foam.
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#24676 - 10/29/10 11:13 PM Re: REMOTE system
collarandhames Offline
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Registered: 07/03/08
Posts: 191
Loc: Peterborough, Ontario
This system is wicked Raff. Thanks for posting the details. You've got a solid thick layer of COZY!

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#24916 - 12/21/10 04:27 PM Re: REMOTE system
Addicted Offline
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Registered: 11/26/10
Posts: 7
Loc: MI
That's a great looking frame.
I'm new at this and was wondering what PEng stood for.
Thanks
Rusty

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#24921 - 12/22/10 10:20 AM Re: REMOTE system [Re: Addicted]
frwinks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
thanks Rusty, sure is diferent from what the TF eyes are used to grin
PEng = Professional Engineer in this case structural Peng.
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#24923 - 12/22/10 12:58 PM Re: REMOTE system
Kevin Rose Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 80
Loc: Tunbridge, Vermont
I downloaded the manual for the REMOTE system and am very interested in the method as I've been looking for a suitable alternative to SIPS - a method that can be site-built where labor is cheap (mine) and pockets aren't deep. Any info on the relative cost of REMOTE vs SIP?
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Northern Vermont

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#24924 - 12/22/10 04:00 PM Re: REMOTE system
TIMBEAL Online   content
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: Maine
The obvious big cost is the sheet foam, in it's different forms.

I spray foam the cracks of the last layer and apply a stick of strapping right at that moment, so spray foam is another cost.

Next would be the screws, I am using panel screws through the strapping and next into the timber and the planks(that is what I am using), I am guessing if you studded a light wall you could screw into the studs if you can find them?

Window bucket material, and the strapping is next on my list. One item the link shows them using is Ice and Water over all the exterior of the building, I have omitted this and don't factor it in as a cost.

I can see the use of it around windows after the buckets are set and before the windows go in and draining it to the outside by some method is also nice. This is a tight building and the windows will sweat. How about one of those air exchange systems, as part of the cost?

I am using clapboarding as the siding this allows the strapping to run vertically and on 2'centers. If shingles were to be used I think I would board on the 2' straps then apply the shingles, but that is a lot of extra work/cost.

Just some thoughts and input. Is that what you were looking for, Kevin? I think it is a nice system.

I also cut in the window opening after everything is attached on the exterior, for the most part. I adjust any of the strapping if needed. I save the extra foam from the opening and work it into the last wall on the house, as a first layer, resawing on the table saw if needed. So little or no waste, there is always some, if you were creative there would be 0 waste, for those greenies.

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#24927 - 12/22/10 06:17 PM Re: REMOTE system [Re: TIMBEAL]
Kevin Rose Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 80
Loc: Tunbridge, Vermont
So, there's the cost of the 2x4 curtain wall, plus the fiberglass in the stud cavities (if one chooses), the sheathing, the membrane, the rigid foam ($3,50 / sq ft for 6") the furring, . . .

Just curious, how does that compare with a sq ft cost for an installed SIP?

I like it 'cause I can get my hands on it and don't have to contract it out. Plus, I don't need cranes, specialty tools, and a crew of workers to get it on.
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Northern Vermont

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#24929 - 12/22/10 06:51 PM Re: REMOTE system
bmike Offline
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Registered: 01/09/08
Posts: 918
Loc: Burlington, VT
I'd use wet cellulose in the wall cavity instead of fiberglass. Go 2x6 or 2x8 with a thin layer of foam.

I have a client who did 2x10 with 1" of urethane sprayed in and then set cellulose with a high R on the outside. He has something like R40 in his walls.
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#24932 - 12/22/10 08:39 PM Re: REMOTE system
TIMBEAL Online   content
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: Maine
Not to debate the topic but to give options....

3 layers of 2" urethane foam at R-7/inch get you R-42. No additional stud wall or fiberglass. Where do you run your wires? Perhaps conduit on the outside of the foam within the strapping layer. A baseboard box chase on the inside? Don't forget the interior walls which allow for conventional wiring. If you use a conventional framed floor system you get to use that for plumbing and wiring as well.

I am using 5/4" strapping, 3", 4", and 8"-10" for the corners and window buckets.

One of the worst parts for me is running the pricing numbers, so please excuse me for not going there. Finding a little difference at one store while something else is priced a little higher and so forth.

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#24935 - 12/23/10 11:40 AM Re: REMOTE system
Reid Harding Offline
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Registered: 06/15/07
Posts: 4
The wiring will go in the stud walls. If you don't place insulation in the stud walls, then plumbling can go there too as the stud cavity will be at room tempurature. You could replace the 2x stud wall with timber studs in 4x4 or 4x5 dimensions on the exterior walls and insert drywall in slots close to the inside surface the studs to provide a reveal. Then all your structure is timber and you have a cavity for wiring.

Reid

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#24937 - 12/23/10 02:26 PM Re: REMOTE system [Re: Kevin Rose]
frwinks Offline
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Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
Originally Posted By: Kevin Rose
Just curious, how does that compare with a sq ft cost for an installed SIP?

that all depends on how you shop grin with SIPS, you're pretty much SOL, you've got a handfull of companies pressing them out as fast as they can get the forests shredded to make OSB and setting the prices as high as they want. If you want SIPS... you pay the quoted price and might get lucky to get a 5%-10% discount if you're nice and buy $80K worth of them grin
If you stick to the more mainstream materials, the price is what YOU want to pay. Buy when stuff goes on sale, not when you need it, look for reclaimed insualtion, buy direct, second hand, etc.. it's all up to how crafty you get with it grin
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#24938 - 12/23/10 03:10 PM Re: REMOTE system [Re: frwinks]
Kevin Rose Offline
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Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 80
Loc: Tunbridge, Vermont
thanks for the feedback. At the moment it's all just food for thought and consideration for the design of a small home that won't be built for another few years. I've gotta finish the next barn first. (Ah, the simplicity of unheated, uninsulated buildings!)
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Northern Vermont

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#25232 - 01/18/11 12:33 PM Re: REMOTE system
Addicted Offline
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Registered: 11/26/10
Posts: 7
Loc: MI
How does this system perform and cost compared to the larsen truss system or the double wall system?
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/articles/larsentruss.htm
Has anyone used either of these?
Rusty

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#25244 - 01/20/11 11:09 AM Re: REMOTE system [Re: Addicted]
frwinks Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
Originally Posted By: Addicted
How does this system perform and cost compared to the larsen truss system or the double wall system?
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/articles/larsentruss.htm
Has anyone used either of these?
Rusty


the double wall Larsen/Riversong truss systems is a solid performer as well.
After hanging around Mr. Riversong on another forum, I must admit a much "greener" option to boot.
After living/working in our house for a few months now, I can tell that the sound transmission through the foam is very high...too high for a house IMO. Originally I was going to leave the wall cavities empty, now I'm planning on blowing dry pack cellulose (damp if I can find the equipment to rent) in them in order to reduce the noise transmission and as a bonus, bump up the insulation value to about R46.
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#25282 - 01/23/11 09:22 AM Re: REMOTE system [Re: frwinks]
Addicted Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/10
Posts: 7
Loc: MI
Do you think the sound transmission is more than what you'd have with sips?
Could the sound coming through the wall be enhanced by the wall cavity? Kind of a sound enhanced chamber?
If you infill the walls, how is that going to change the performance of your vapor barrier?
What are the benefits of damp v.s. Dry blown cellulose?
Are you happy with the current insulating performance of the wall now?
Sorry for the rapid fire questions
Thanks for all the help

Rusty

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#25319 - 01/25/11 11:05 AM Re: REMOTE system [Re: Addicted]
Kevin Rose Offline
Member

Registered: 11/08/09
Posts: 80
Loc: Tunbridge, Vermont
Originally Posted By: Addicted
How does this system perform and cost compared to the larsen truss system or the double wall system?
http://www.greenhomebuilding.com/articles/larsentruss.htm
Has anyone used either of these?
Rusty


Do any of you know of any adaptations of the Larsen-Truss method to a timber frame? In particular, what would a sill configuration look like to support the 12" wall thickness extending outside of the frame (all atop a crawlspace stemwall, for instance)?
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Northern Vermont

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#25320 - 01/25/11 11:07 AM Re: REMOTE system [Re: Addicted]
frwinks Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
Originally Posted By: Addicted
Do you think the sound transmission is more than what you'd have with sips?
Could the sound coming through the wall be enhanced by the wall cavity? Kind of a sound enhanced chamber?
If you infill the walls, how is that going to change the performance of your vapor barrier?
What are the benefits of damp v.s. Dry blown cellulose?
Are you happy with the current insulating performance of the wall now?
Sorry for the rapid fire questions
Thanks for all the help

Rusty



I'm pretty sure it is, the two layers of OSB on the sips must cut down the noise a bit.
Foam is known for great sound transmission, I hoped 5.5" inches of it wouldn't be as bad..lol
When I spoke to the guys @ CCHRC, they said they put 1/3 of the total R value on the warm side of the REMOTE wall...in Alaska. I think damp sprayed cellulose will be easier to install (no need for insulweb which would be tricky to staple behind the posts/beams and the ability to spray it in all the tight nooks and crannies behind braces, post and beams). I also heard it can be left exposed as final finish. I think with a light layer of some natural covering to blend it with the studs and then painted, it would:
#1) provide a barrier of natural material between our living space and the Polyiso
#2) keep drywall out of most of the house
#3) blend in great with the funky theme of our house

The house is performing great. We've been breaking temp records in the last two weeks with temps dipping down to -40C at night. I am still able to work upstairs in a shirt. There is currently no heat being directed upstairs, the only heat getting up there is from the basement through the cracks in the subfloor...a redneck heated subfloor you might call it..lol The mainfloor still has a lot of undetailed section where we're loosing some of that heat too, so I have a feelin' our 4 cubic foot Hearthstone stove might be a lil' overkill once we're running it next winter... whistle
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#25863 - 03/10/11 08:25 PM Re: REMOTE system
Addicted Offline
Member

Registered: 11/26/10
Posts: 7
Loc: MI
Frwinks
Any updates on modifying your walls for sound transmission? I'm thinking of following the same path if it looks like it's working out ok. Any thought to having an energy audit on your home? Throwing those results up against a sip house would be very interesting.
Rusty

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#25867 - 03/11/11 11:55 AM Re: REMOTE system [Re: Addicted]
frwinks Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
hey Rusty,
haven't done anything with the walls yet, but I'm sure once the cavities are full of cellulose, covered with earthen plaster and sided on the outside, the problem will go away.
Went through an energy audit a couple of weeks ago, but due to large gaps on one of the walls (one which is getting direct glazed this year) the guy didn't run the blow test. The good news is that the ON gov is paying 100% of our insulation investment grin
Once the glazing is done, and the house is detailed, we'll run the test and see where we're @ in order to design a properly sized HVAC system.
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#25884 - 03/14/11 01:21 PM Re: REMOTE system [Re: frwinks]
frwinks Offline
Member

Registered: 06/14/07
Posts: 195
Loc: The Hills, ON
Here is the roof/wall intersection detail I came up with. Maintaining a good air barrier and "seamless" continuation of the insulation envelope, usually gets tricky here. PERSIST/REMOTE makes it easy to obtain an air tight connection with ZERO thermal bridging.



for a bigger pic click:



Edited by frwinks (03/14/11 01:23 PM)
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#25894 - 03/14/11 05:05 PM Re: REMOTE system
TIMBEAL Online   content
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Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: Maine
Today seems to be, alternative insulation day. Very close to the system I use, for the most part. I am fond of 1-1/2"-2-1/2" planks in place of the 2x studs, as a difference. Rafters vs purlins can cause re arranging of the roof strapping. Wiring, again is a factor, my best solution so far is to wire it to the outside using conduit, within the strapping layer. I am assuming the 2x wall is for wiring purposes only?

Reading other post on other methods, I see a saving in time and material in using this method. Am I mistaken?

A nicely constructed soffit box under the overhang helps with deflection at the eve.

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