Hi,

I just spent this weekend looking at the details of a barn that was build in 1903, on my neighbors property. I noticed some rather strange joinery, at least strange to me given my limited experience.

The barn is a 36' X 60' bank barn built into a hillside. The bank entrance is on the 60' side on the higher grade side (as per usual). The foundation is in the shape of a "U" with the low side being completely open (no stone work at all) The floor joists on that side sit on a sill supported by posts instead of the foundation like on the other three sides. There are five bents spaced at 15 feet. It has common wall plates and common perlin plates (I hope I have my terminology correct). Perlin plates supports the rafters at midpoint and wall plates tie the outside bent posts together and support the rafters at the eave. I noticed the following.

1) 60 ft wall and perlin plates were scarfed. one side had two scarfs, the other had one scarf joint. That is, one side was made up of two timbers and the other three to make the total 60ft length. The scarf was a stop splayed scarf without wedges. That is there is nothing in the joint that holds the joint from pulling apart in the direction of the beam length. Each scarf joint was centered over a post with the tenon of the post going right through the top of the plate. There was a pin driven through each side of the scarf and into the tenon of the post to hold it together. This would have the tendency to try and split the post tenon length wise. There were no signs of failure but I have never seen this type of joint before. Has anyone else, and are they a good joint?

2) I noticed that the reference face for the bents was odd. The north gable bent had it's reference edge to the north, the second bent beside that one had it's reference edge to the south, the third and fourth bents had reference edges to the north again and the south gable bent had it's reference edge to the south. Is it normal to have the reference edge of the internal bents on opposite sides or do they normally have their reference edges on the same sides. I would have expected all bents to have their reference edge on the same side either north or south and the other gable bent to be reversed to the other four.

Thanks.

Hi Pringles
I have seen that joint many times but have seen none that have split. The post Tenon prevents the Scarf joint from pulling apart.
As fas as ref. side go and which way they face... as long as the outside bents have the ref. on the outside.
Are the braces on this frame Saw cut 2 x 4s without pegs.

Thane

Hi Pringles,

That reference face layout of the cross frames appears to be quite correct.

The two cross frames that face the threshing floor should face each other and this would equate to frames 2 and 3 (counting from the north). The tall entry & lower exit doors should be found in this bay (2-3) opposite each other.

Both gable end reference faces should face outwards i.e. frames 1 should face north and frame 5 face south.

That leaves frame 4 which can face either way but in house should face northward i.e. oppposite to frame 5 or in a barn probably indicates that an upper floor (hay loft) is / was present.

Regards

Ken Hume

Good point Ken. That does make sense as when standing in the Threshing floor, I have always seen the Ref. face of the bent.

In my home area, some bank barns do have reversed reference on interior bents. I believe the raising order was to erect the gable end bays before the central bent was raised. The indicator of raising order can be found in over-under scarfing, under scarfs are placed first. In these cases the central plates and purlins have over scarfs on both ends, thus making the central members the last placed in the line.

Hi Roger,

I am not aware that cross frame reference face orientation poses any restraint on frame raising order.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken, I was commenting on a local condition and I wonder how widespread nonlinear raising schemes are in other areas. I am not suggesting any dogma, just an association concerning building detail. Variety abounds.

Thanks for everyone's comments.

To answer the question about braces, the braces were sawed 3X4's and 2X4's without pegs. Even among those sizes, they varied. Shouldn't the braces have pegs?

I am confused about the statement:

"but in house should face northward i.e. oppposite to frame 5 or in a barn probably indicates that an upper floor (hay loft) is / was present."

What do you mean by "in house" and why would this indicate that an upper floor was present? By upper floor do you mean joists across the main cross tie beams of bents 4 and 5? This was not there.

I am a bit confused about how this barn was used. I noticed that the bays on both gable ends had a sort of half wall (about 3 or 4 feet high) that was build into bents 2 and 4. Why was this there. Was it to hold hay in that area. How high would the hay be stacked typically and given that, what use would this low wall have?

What was done on the threshing floor? I assume removing seeds from a harvested crop? How was this process done. Was this floor expected to be able to support a wagon full of hay (loose or square baled) while it was unloaded. That is, you back a wagon up the ramp and onto the threshing floor as it was referred to. I assumed hay would be stored in the whole barn but did notice that the floor joists in the gable bays ran north to south (length wise) and were spaced at 3 feet centers but the joists in the middle two bays ran east west spaced at 4ft centers and supported at their midpoint with another beam under them running north south. This floor did not look like it could handle as much weight as the gable bays.
What joist sizes where common. They were 11" or 12" in diameter(logs) on the big end and ran the whole 36 foot length of the width of the barn floor. The ones running the other direction (north to south) in the gable bays were a bit smaller but spanned only 15ft(3ft centers) instead of 18ft(4ft centers) How high was the hay stacked typically?

The reason I have all these questions is because I did some detailed drawings of the whole barn because I am going to copy the design and build it on my place including the 2ft thick field stone foundation. Did these stone walls usually sit on grade or did they put them down to the frost line. I see some failures starting on the wall and a section of it has been replaced with concrete bricks (does not look right) so I assume it is has suffered from frost heave damage over the years. The mortar was like packed sand. Not very good compared to mortar you can get today.

Thanks again,
Steve.

Pringles, the hay of 1903 was almost certainly loose and piled to the rafters in the gable bays. It was common in that era that barns were furnished with hay tracks with trolleys and hay forks that would pick up hay from a wagon in a central and move the hay overhead to a gable bay, four legged horse power, or it could hand loaded. The knee walls sound like skirting around thw threshing floor to keep the grain and hay from mingling. Threshing in 1900 could be done by hand or by machine, power could come from either a horse on a tread mill or a belt driven pto on a steam tractor. Ag museums and steam tractor associations could provide live re-enactments. Google the topics for more.

In my home area, bank barns do not commonly have hay lofts, hay was piled on the floor and moved to the livestock throwing the hay down a hatch or out a door on the forebay side ie the side opposite of the ramp. Some barns have a sheet steel lined granery. Floor joist are hewed on two sides to about eight inches deep from oak poles about 16 at the butt and 10 at the tip. The joist run ramp side to forebay. Forebays tend to sag under load.

Steve,
I am very familiar with the type and style of barn that you are looking at replicating. I have restored and even relocated a few of these TF barns in Wisconsin.

I agree that the driveway mow/bay was used as a threshing floor where the oats, wheat, or barley was thrashed with a flail to loosen the seeds from the hulls. Often times there would be a smaller door, or set of doors on the opposite side of the barn from the large driveway barn doors, that when the wind would blow, the chaff would be separated from the seed by tossing the combined mixture into the air, and the wind, that was passing through the barn, would carry the chaff out the door and out of the barn....this is called winnowing.

The short wall on either side or the threshing floor did keep the hay and straw off the threshing floor and gave a surface in which to scoop or shovel up against when collecting the grain.

The threshing floor was only used in the early part of the growing season since winter wheat is planted in the fall, grows in the spring, and is harvested before the first hay crop is ready to be acut by early summer. Some of the hay and straw from the previous season would probably be left over from the winter months, since the pastures would not be able to sustain and animals until early summer.

The floor support system for the driveway mow/bay is in a different orientation than the end bays for a couple of reasons.
First, the floor boards would run perpendicular to the threshing walls so that the grain could be swept/ scooped towards the wall without going cross grain to the floor. And the outter floor board that would be just inside the barn doors coul be replaced easily if it were damaged by exposure to weather, work horses, or wagon wheels.
Second, often times the width of the threshing floor would be divided into three seperate spans for the floor joists, which would shorten the length of the joists needed and helped to stabilize the floor with less flexion, or bounce.

At the last public barn raising that I co-hosted, of a barn that was originally built in 1888, we pre-assembled the 6 bents and stacked them in the order that they would be raised. #1,#2,#6,#5,#3,#4
They are assembled and stacked in reverse order with the reference faces facing up. Just like the trunnels that connect the girts/siding nailers to the exterior bent posts, being driven fom the ouside/reference face....so to the trunnels that are used to build the bents are also driven from the reference face.

The stone foundation probably does reach down below grade but how far is anyone's guess. I would recomend pouring a concrete frost wall below final grade...24in wide with a even wider footing underneath...and then build your stone wall on top...no one will know, and we can all keep a secret! haha

Rooster

Awesome replies, thanks. Very interesting. I love these old barns and it's even more fun poking around in them.

I like the idea of splitting the threshing floor into 3 spans. I thought that the 18 foot span that it had was under designed. I won't be using it for threshing but instead for square bale storage so I want the floor strong. This means extra posts in the basement which will also support the main cross beams that the gable bay joists are let into. I thought it could use some extra support as well. I did some load calculations and they were all under sized based on the weight and size of a single square bale.

For the foundation I agree that pouring a solid wall below grade to 4 feet down is the best way to go but I want to try and keep the expense down and try to use stones for a footing and frost wall. What are your thoughts on digging down 4 feet below grade(basement floor) and throwing in huge stones on the bottom for a footing and filling in the gaps with concrete, then using forms or slip forming, build the frost wall up to grade by just throwing in smaller stones and concrete. Then start laying the stone wall from grade up to my finished height. I would also use re-enforced bond beams half way up the above grade wall and also at the top and also build 2 buttress wall to the inside of the basement at 20 foot intervals. The corners would count as a buttress as well. Do you think that using this method with all stones to cut down on the concrete costs and trucking would have the durability of a modern poured wall and footing. Lots of stones around and they are all free. I just have to collect them.

Thanks again,
Steve.

I forgot one question.

How do you raise the bents in the order of #1,#2,#6,#5,#3,#4? How do you get the last #4 bent up. Wouldn't it hit the other raised bents. I wouldn't think there would be enough room to tip it up. Maybe there is, I have to look at my drawings to see how long the main posts were compared to the bent spacing. Where is the jin pole located to tip up the gable bents? Where is the gable bent lying when it's tipped up. Is it on the floor with it's post bottoms beside where they will go and the jin pole located on the ground at the end of the barn, or is the jin pole on the floor with the bent turned around and once it's tipped up the posts are pushed a bit at a time to the end of the barn where they will go?

I assume that the secondary posts (the ones that sit on the main tie beam and are capped with the main perlin at the rafters) are lifted up after all the bents are up and the wall plates are on to hold them up. I can't imagine this all going up together as one huge bent. You would have to brace it like crazy. Doesn't sound right to me.

Steve.

Steve,

The sequence of bents was caused by the short bent spacing, (10-14ft centers) and the tall bent height (18ft). Bent numbers 2 and 5 where actually just prick posts in the original frame from 1888. I attached each pair of exterior prick posts with a 34ft tie beam (with two interior posts to support the tie beam), and made them into two new bents, in order to use the space above the tie beam for an upper floor system.

Bent #1 was raised (end-wall) with the gin pole on the outside of the foundation.
Bent #2 was raised and set 2 ft away from the first bent, and temperarily braced.

The gin pole was move to the other end of the building, outside of the foundation.

Bent #6 was raised (end wall)
Bent #5 was raised and also set 2 ft away from Bent #6, and temporarily braced.

The gin pole was then moved to the center of the buiding.
Bent #3 was raised and set in it's correct position.
Bent #2 was then slid horizontally into place while it was balanced vertically with ropes.
Bay #1 girts were installed.
Bay #2 girts were instaled.

Bent #4 was raised and set in it's correct position.
Bay #3 girts and door headers were installed.

Bent #5 was slid into position.
Bay #4 girts were installed.
Bay #5 girts were inatalled.

Each top-plate was made up of two joined beams, and lifted as one top-plate onto the tops of the outer posts.

The purlins and their posts/diags were assembled as two complete structures on top of the tie beams, and tilted up with the post tenons lining up with the mortises on the top side of the tie beams. An 8ft 8x8 was rachet-strapped over the splice joints to keep them rigid.

Here are some links for photos of the project, and some videos.

I hope this helps.

Rooster

http://s453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254/crwtimberframe/Spangler%20Bussey%20barn/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeHHbYWIHXY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yCiDw3_KmY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpmV-ndYtt4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UucmZrk7EbY

http://...www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5XIk7Jp-fo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rdd9PiYqshc

Steve,

With regards to your footing and foundation, it depends on your time vs. money equation.

If you have more time than money, then I would say slip trench a concrete footing and build your stone wall from scratch.

Or you could spend more money and put up a block wall and face it with stone.

Or spend more money and pour a concrete frost wall and build your stone wall on top.

I'm not a big fan or using stones as filler in concrete footings or walls. Concrete doesn't bond with stones like mortar does, and stone weaken it structurally.

Concrete with lots of stones...bad.
Stones with a lot of mortar...bad.
Concrete with small stones (aggregate)...good.
Stones with joints of mortar...good.

Using large stones as a footing below frost line is how many barns were built. But that is a lot of work and is difficult to build off of especially if the stones don't have a relatively flat surface to begin your wall.

Back-filling the foundation with 2-3in stone will help with the water and frost issues, by allowing any rain or moisture to drain straight down instead of being trapped up against your stone wall causing damage when it freezes. Also, gutters at the eaves with drain spouts will help the water vs. stone foundation conflict.

Rooster

Thanks to everyone for the advice. The youtube videos and pictures were very interesting.

Steve.