Hi Guys. I'm interested in hearing from anybody that has used poplar in a frame (or pople as the farmers call it) I have some big, straight, branch free for 30' poplars in the back and I have an itch to use them for my house addition as 20' tie beams. I was inspired by Rob Hadden's talk in Saratoga when he mentioned he used Lombardy Poplar in his work with obvious great results. I don't know about Australia but around here Lombardy is a junk tree with thick branches starting at ground level. Anyone have any experience? Does it stay reasonably straight? Check heavy? I have sawn it for lumber in the past for others and remember it lifting out of the clamp as the cant got smaller but I'm wondering how an 8"x10" would behave. Thanks

Hi Ray,

Poplar is used in timber frame construction and can be very long lived in that use. Positive confirmation has been obtained from Kew Gardens laboratory that black poplar was used for the cruck blades in the Cholstrey cruck barn now located at The Avoncroft Museum (frequent venue for the UK Carpenters Fellowship annual Frame event).

I am currently recording a cruck house in Oxfordshire that has elbowed crucks and I think that these are black poplar (populus nigra). These trees are still present in the village centre growing beside the chalk streams and so it should really be no surprise that poplar could be found in local buildings and mills.

We have lots of populus canadensis growing in England and this variety grows straight and tall and might be a lot more useful than we currently understand since this species is a cross between p. nigra and p. deltoides. Lombardy poplar (p. plantierensis) is also a fastigiate sub species of black poplar and so should provide useful timber.

I recently purchased a copy of "The Black Poplar" by Dr Fiona Cooper first published in 2006 by Windgather Press [ISBN 1-905119-05-4). This book is currently on sale at Oxbow Books in Oxford, UK for £5.00 ($8.00) (http.www.oxbowbooks.co.uk). They have a US distributor (http://www.oxbowbooks.com/home.cfm/Location/DBBC)

I have written to Rob Haddon this morning to discuss his experiences with Lombardy poplar and will keep you informed on any relevant information contained in his reply. Mark Davidson (Ontario) has sawed white poplar and I am sure that he would share his experiences of working with this timber with you.

I would be keen to hear more about the use of black poplar or sub species in timber frame buildings.

Regards

Ken Hume

Thanks Ken.
According to my "Trees in Canada" book the poplar I have my eye on is Balsam Poplar (populus balsamifera)which it states is very similar to Black Cottonwood. I think I'll take one down after the Sens game.

Hi everyone tonight:

My experiences with poplar is as follows:

This is the specie that grows here in Ontario, it never was widely used as lumber even timbers twist and the lumber will also twist. I expect that it is the water content that causes the movement.

Right now as the other valuable species disappear once in a while a poplar log finds its way to the sawmill

It becomes very hard when dry and resists nailing, and does not resist rotting well.

NH

Hi Richard,

You state - that poplar was never widely used.

How do you know this and what test have you employed to arrive at this conclusion ?

How many buildings have you sampled and were these in poplar growing areas ?

You state that it twists and is prone to rotting and hence this implies that somebody has converted it for use in some respect or other. What was that use ?

We need to establish some hard "evidence based" facts in respect of the use of poplar.

Regards

Ken Hume

I had a chance once-upon-a-time to dismantle a 30 year old granary that a Farmer had built using some Poplar milled from his home quarter section.
I showed up with a couple of tools, expecting to 'pop' the siding off and gather up all sorts of wood for a feature wall in my basement. Spent 3 hours on it and ended up with a couple of pieces around 24 inches long with splits through them down the length. Poplar is some tough when it dries, but keeping it straight is another story. This farmer pretty much nailed it up as it came off the saw mill, so it was pretty good, but given any chance, it will wrap itself up into a big mess.

Ken, I've done a bit of googling, not what you're looking for but it was an education, I never knew they were in the willow family.

Your original native black poplar and the one in historic buildings would have been populus nigra spp betulifolia I think? According to Wikipedia it is now becoming rare. The pictures I've seen are a tree of broader habit much like our native cottonwoods.

P.nigra spp lombardy, a columnar subspecies was introduced from Italy but did not tolerate the climate well.

Lombardy and betulifolia were crossed in the 1880's to yield P. nigra spp plantierensis which you mention above. I believe this is what is commonly called a lombardy poplar in England.

I've had an enjoyable round of emails with a dendrologist although this is not his area of expertise.



For us a lombardy may be a somewhat different tree, although maybe not, and is to both of us an introduced species.

The cottonwoods are one populus group, the aspens are the other native populus we have, both have been used for lumber but as many have said, it would probably not be the first tree out of the woods. I doubt it was there either. Mechanically it seems to be on par with white pine. The FPL has done conversion studies with aspen and recommended a Saw-Dry-Rip program.

These are some silvics links on populus;
http://plants.usda.gov/java/profile?symbol=POPUL

http://plants.usda.gov/java/ClassificationServlet?source=profile&symbol=POPUL&display=63

Hi Ken and others looking in, I would like to respond to your comments that relate to my reply above,

I have over the years had the opportunity to examine many historic structures, and I can honestly say that none contained to any noticeable extent poplar lumber, or poplar timber. This is not to say that a board or 2 may have strayed in during repairs in later years

There is no test that I am aware of but rather during my surveying of these buildings I carefully examined boarding and timbers visually for specie, axe marks, nails, size of timbers, timberframing techniques, and maybe the way the doors and hinges were constructed etc.

You were wondering what "Hard Evidence" I used, I think thatmy statement relates to what my hard evidence is, actual examination of old historic structures that survive in this area of the world.

Anytime that I make a comment it is meant to help those that ask questions and is to expand their knowledge through my many years of experience.

I hope that this clears up how I formulate my responses in many areas, and for sure is not the last word on any subject

NH

Hi Richard,

Thanks for that clarification.

Please be assured that I am not taking a pop at you but more trying to establish some reliable facts in respect of the use of poplar in timber framed buildings.

Like you, I pride myself in being fairly good at identifying some of the more commonly used timbers by visual examination of grain patterns, colouration etc. but this is not allways easy to do especially where timbers have been painted or covered with tar or soot from open hall or chimney bay fires.

I have now identified 3 buildings in Oxfordshire where poplar is known to have been used however I am also quite conscious that for example Whitaker's cottage at the Weald & Downland Museum has had each timber sytematically and scientifically identified revealing a mixture of about 20 different timbers including walnut, apple, chestnut, oak, pine, etc., etc. so I well realise that the hands and eyes can quite easily be fooled.

I am not aware of a good quick non destructive or visual test for poplar other than that suggested by one of our more experienced conservation carpenters to hit it with a hammer and see if this makes a dent.

I have over the years made a library of test sample wood blocks that I use to make field comparisons but as you well know timber appearance along the grain can be quite different depending on the conversion method employed.

I am currently trying to source a branch or offcut from a black poplar tree and other poplar varieties so that I can make a test block for various poplar species variants.

Regards

Ken Hume

Hi Ken and others tonight:

I believe that your comments were only meant to be constructive, and to that end I highly value your comments and enjoy your posts, I am sure that everyone that has passed by would say the same thing.

I have found out over the years of conversations with people from all areas of the world that things were created in many different ways and with many different materials, especially in the building trades where tree types come into use. Poplar around here was not a valued wood type mainly because I suppose of the abundance of other more valuable types, eventhough to the untrained eye the logs and freshly sawn lumber looks ok in reality the eventual dried lumber is inferior in many different ways.

As a boy growing up I was quickly trained to shun poplar trees if others were available, and really it wasn't until I became an adult that reality of the fact quickly struck home.

My dad planted a grove of California poplar on this farm lot about 1940 not because of it value but mainly because of the quick growth habit, it was needed for a wind break around the buildings

These trees now are reaching maturity and many have had to be cut down to avoid damage to the surrounding buildings they are very brittle and during the last ice storm a few years ago many of the trees were practically denuded of limbs, what a mess was left after the ice left the region.

I might say that we all learned a great lesson that mother nature can really get her back up when she wants to.

I must say before leaving that eventho in a previous post I aluded to the poor quality of poplar even for burning I have had to succumb to using poplar in my wood fired high efficiency stove just to get rid of the the wood from these very poplar trees as they have to come down, and I must say it is not too bad in a controlled burning environment but not good in the stoves of yesteryear that one could not control the burning rate.

NH