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Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #25157 01/13/11 08:29 PM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hello,

Still, I think it can be tough to really get it with lime. But the more I work with it and learn about it, the more I appreciate its uses. Here at home some of the many uses include:

White washing.
With pigment and a binder it makes a very fine paint.
Pointing
Masonry
Floor
Plastering
Glazing putty (mixed with linseed oil)
Linseed oil paint additive

I also use it with puzzolan, or trass, what could the English equivalent be? Volcanic dust which has a very marked effect on how it hardens - relevant for capillary moisture movement in supporting walls and masonry foundations.

Last edited by Cecile en Don Wa; 01/13/11 08:34 PM. Reason: grammer
Re: historic hewing questionnaire #25158 01/13/11 08:52 PM
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D L Bahler Offline
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The Swiss website I talked about earlier mentioned 3 different additives for the different layers. The first layer he used coarse sand, the second layer fine sand, and the final layer he used marble dust. Would adding marble dust help to prevent shrinkage (and the resulting cracking) in the plaster as it dries?


Was de eine ilüchtet isch für angeri villech nid so klar.
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Re: historic hewing questionnaire #25176 01/14/11 02:17 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hello everyone tonight

Good discussions, and thanks for sharing with everyone

I am sure that the european, italian , swiss wall mixtures would vary with each culture, and of course the ingredients that was available in each region. Correct me if I am wrong but I believe that the Italian, or Mediterranean culture had many centuries of experimentation and came up with formulas that even today cannot be improved upon, providing that we knew what they used.

The only thing that I am sure of is that in Upper Canada only good sharp sand along with the lime was used in the preparation of the wall surface's 2 underlayers, and if possible hair from cattle or horses was used as a binding agent.

I have read some accounts where the mortar used in the ancient Roman walls in Britain have been examined to determine just what they used at that time, Ken might have something to add on this front, I suspect that they also used ingredients that was available locally rather than import.

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire #25181 01/14/11 08:38 AM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Richard,

The ancient Roman capital of England at Silchester is only a short bike ride away from home and I visted this last year with Chris How from Australia who examined the still standing city walls to same. He spotted pices of charcoal in the lime mortar mix that used to hold the wall together and with a life span now of over 2000 years the Romans obviously knew a thing or two about building. I will take a digi pic the next time I make a bike ride round past "Calleva Atribatum".

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Ken Hume] #25182 01/14/11 11:21 AM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hello,

It was a matter of common practice, up until the collective worldwide derailing of sanity going on just now, that reuse was the norm. Brick, wood and I have heard, but it may be a myth, even lime mortar. But you could include window panes, roof tiles - christ, who knows how far this cycle of re-use was or could be perpetuated.

I have spent many hours for days knocking old lime mortar off of brick and reusing the bricks. There are noticeable impurities imbedded in the mortar, mostly bits - up to 5 mm and sometimes as big as 1 cm - of shells. These impurities, the result of the less than clinical production precesses, play no small part in the overall character of the mortar. Because modern production is largely a clinically controlled process, where imperfections are frowned on, these defects are done away with and result qualitatively in a different product. This old lime mortar is truly wonderful stuff I notice as I struggle to remove it, and I am left to live with the knowledge that the best that I can do will never match up in reality.

But back to lime plaster and lime plaster applied to interior walls, as the subject was. Except to say those Roman weenies never could occupy Friesland. Ha. Pleased to say that I just hauled some of my lime, in a bucket with the lid on and topped off with water, up from the well after a few years, and it remains a nice, smooth and sticky paste. Only 30 or so more years to go now. It's true that the sand used is particular in that not any old sand will do. Sharp edges give the lime, (binder) a chance fuse with the sand,(aggregate). Binder, aggregate, strength! Water, catalyzer plus makes it easier to use. Watch out, not too much.
I like the idea of storing it in the ground and digging it up later to use. Only thing is that eventually the lime would leach and seep into the ground and leave only sand behind. Better store your clay in the ground and give the lime an impermeable bottom to stand on while it brews.

Now I wonder about finishing off the plastered surface. I can think of no lime based surfaces left without some kind of finish treatment. In fact I think any such surface would be technically incomplete.

Re: historic hewing questionnaire #25183 01/14/11 12:43 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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I am amazed every time I walk past the small patch of clay and straw infill in my little blacksmith building. It is holding up very well, no noticeable degrade in the material after 3 years. In hard rain I walk by it and it almost always appears dry! I can just make out straw fleck through the lime wash covering the clay. Time for a second coat this spring I suppose.

I do see some loose sections but these are due to me not having sufficient pinning to the timber with the waddle system.

I also have a section of lime plaster in the house I am testing for durability. It is in the wood storage corner, the lower section is boards, about 3' up the plaster starts. When the wood pile is fresh it reaches the plaster, I am seeing a 1" chunk which was knocked with a stick of wood, some cracks at the lath and in the corner. I have only one coat at this time. As the inner working of the house change this area will no longer be for wood storage and i will finnish it off. It is holding pretty well for the abuse it gets.

Re: historic hewing questionnaire #25193 01/14/11 11:26 PM
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timberwrestler Offline
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I've been putting the first coat of lime plaster on my living room walls. Because I'm slow, I've had the lime putty (topped with water) in my basement for about 3 years. For whatever reason the standard 3/1 sand/putty mix was coming out way too dry. I have no idea of what ratio I did use, just whatever felt right on the hawk and trowel.

Re: historic hewing questionnaire #25204 01/16/11 01:13 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hello everyone tonight

Thanks ken and others for coming on board with constructive information it helps to keep things in prospective using a varied recipe of mixtures and methods from around the globe.

Don--you mentioned the finishing of the wall surface, according to my research the last or third coat, would be just the putty lime trowelled on with a steel trowel, maybe others have additional information on other techniques.

The Grist mill that we reconstructed at UCV had of course stone walls, and on the interior surface the final layer was not trowelled but floated with a wood float, and left a wee bit on the rough side, and not very level, the mixture was just sand and lime 3 to 1.

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire #25212 01/16/11 07:39 PM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hello everyone tonight

Don: that final finish on the walls I suppose that you could be referring to could be a paint layer or wall paper or it could be paint graining if you were able to do that or had the funds to hire a person that could do it for you.

paint graining is not too hard to do it just needs alitle practice and a bit of knowledge to accomplish.

Our historic painter(s) at UCV could do this type of finish, and to appreciate the technique, and to be able to evaluate their work I took a couple of historic course on paint graining and marblezing.

The result of this type of painting can be just fantastic, especially the marbelizing, a good historic painter, can reproduce just about any type of marble finish with amazing reality

Once again I do not profess to be an authority on paint graining, but then again many wives and husbands that look at the product (timber finishes) that you guys produce can easily spot flaws, it is this type of supervision that I had to be able to put forward or at least converse about with the professional person.

I might say that the majority of these historic specialists are not easy to supervise, they take very great offense at being supervised at all but feel that they should only answer to high level managers

In someways I agree and have had hard conversations with some of these individuals, from experience I have worked forsupervisors that really could not do the work that I was hired to do.

It is my opinion that supervisors need only to have a good grasp of professional's jobs, they are being hired at good salaries to do the work or produce finishes that they are hired to do, or that the site required. Year end evaluations are extremely difficult!!

Maybe some of you have additional comments about being chastised by other than professionals of your training or experience, from past comments I can tell that there is problems from time to time.

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #25213 01/16/11 10:03 PM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hi,
Yes, NH, ( I don't know if I should be putting an article before that or not - as in the NH or the northern hewer...), and not to move the topic on or anything 'cause there is plenty more could be said here but I did mean how these old-time-plastered walls would have been handled once the plaster was up there. But just as important how they could or should be worked on even now, or in a non-historical setting. After all we shouldn't give the whole thing up for dead and buried in a museum out there somewhere.The use of clay here is widespread, relatively, but I see lime making strong inroads now as a wall covering.

The finishes I am aware of are paints, washes and wallpapering but then maybe not the sort of wallpapering generally thought of today. I mean the strung up paper with linen backing floating on a wooden framework attached to the plastered wall. I'm also aware of plastered walls being covered with modern sheet material - I don't know, maybe to get that oh so flat look.

Graining and marbleizing I've seen on columns and other elements but no plastered walls that I know of in these parts although I have seen it on wood plank walls and bedsteads.

As far as washes, I think, what could be better than a good ol' whitewash for in the stall or down the cellar, or in that gri - that mill. Also in rooms where not a lot time is spent, where the wash would rub off on your shoulder if you brushed against it, and yet where every few years or so, when it needed it, or yearly out there in the stall at the spring cleaning, one could easily mix up and slap on a fresh coat, and on the ceiling. And the whitewash I like best is the simplest, just a kilo of lime powder and a liter of rain water mixed together. Maybe some skimmed-off milk or a bit of casein powder in there if it is in a room that is more lived in like a kitchen or front room.

Northern hewer, have you ever noticed different wash mixtures for rooms with different uses? The funny thing about whitewash that also struck me in another entry up there is how it is translucent when first put on and then whenever it gets wet, but that at the same time wetting it makes it even stronger or more durable and opaque once it dries out again. It is the damnedest thing.


Last edited by Cecile en Don Wa; 01/16/11 10:12 PM.
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