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Re: Moisture Meters #25467 02/06/11 04:19 PM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hello,

Metering, measuring, quantifying, it all reveals a potential pitfall as I see it where wood becomes equivalent to cement or steel or fiberglass, more a sum of its constituents. There are plenty of valid reasons for felling and working wood under particular seasonal conditions that have nothing to do with speculation and myths and superstition. Which is not to say that there is nothing to the story of Odin giving breath to an elm tree and an ash tree to create our first human ancestors.

While not discounting meter reading altogether, I do wonder exactly what those numbers are saying and even more so what is done with those numbers. Could it be a way of avoiding real knowledge of the wood we use and how it relates to conditions where we are? At best this metering can help with what should be the intent of getting to know and appreciate wood rather than the rationale for beginning to chop a mortice.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Moisture Meters #25468 02/07/11 02:00 AM
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The closer wood is to the equilibrium moisture content the less it will move in service.

My first experience with metering wood was in cabinet and furniture work. Moisture content was critical to delivering a stable product. For instance glueing panel stock that was too green and then surfacing it led to unsightly gluelines or failures. Our suppliers had contracted to deliver wood at a specified moisture content, the meter was used to verify that the wood was suitable for our uses and that the supplier had met the terms of the contract before we accepted the load.

I bought the meter above when I was contracting with homeowners to assemble log home packages they had purchased. A number of suppliers were advertising that their materials were dried to some specified moisture content. This then becomes part of their purchase contract. I have sat in that most uncomfortable chair when a client decided to take the supplier to court. In that situation fingers begin to be pointed in every direction. The supplier pointed his at me. Unfortunately we do not live in a perfect world, I ordered that meter, in that case it is another documentary tool just like my camera.

In the photos above, several years later, another supplier and a similar situation. I explained to the clients' what had happened, what they had paid for, what they had recieved, what the possible repercussions were and ways to handle the situation. At the end of the conversation they chose to proceed. I took pictures of the meter to document the conditions. It's been over a dozen years, those clients are happy with their house.

I think I've explained how the meter can be used as a tool to further your knowledge of wood and how drying is progressing. It is a tool but it does take an understanding of wood to be of use.

An analogy might be helpful. My wife is a fine gardener, she has a degree in horticulture and worked as an ag tech at a large university. She takes soil samples... prior to planting by the signs. One does not exclude the other.

There are some things I've been thinking about regarding DL Bahler's paper. I suspected the changes were due to some form of extractive, this is pure speculation based on the gist of the paper and the mechanical property they chose to test. But, think about this, one example that is given in textbooks is the similar density of Sweetgum and Mahogany. Sweetgum has shrinkage values of 5.3 radial and 10.2% tangential. Mahogany, at the same density has shrinkage values of 3.7 & 5.1%... only about half the shrinkage of Sweetgum. The difference? Mahogany is loaded with extractives. These "bulk" the cells and prevent the fibers from being able to move together unimpeded. Less shrinkage due to the higher extractive content makes the mahogany more stable through moisture fluctuations and less likely to check while drying. I don't know if this is on the right track from the information given, just more grist for the mill.

Re: Moisture Meters #25470 02/07/11 04:07 PM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hello,

Not only two examples of using the meter to pinpoint a given moisture level reading at a given time but a measurement of the reputability of two unscrupulous lumber dealers too. In fact, that second point is what I understood the two stories illustrated best to be honest.

Another use of a moisture meter that I can think of is a way of measuring patience. Do you have the patience to wait for that meter reading to get down there? I don't at all make light of the use of these meters and like I said up there don't discount them, just offer my perspective. I know a guy in France, a real campagnon, done the tour de France, the whole bit. I visited his yard full of oak mostly, all black and creviced some of it hundreds of years old. I'm pretty sure he has a moisture meter too. Clearly they serve some purpose and are popular, the one Don P pictured even looks like one of good quality. A lot would not be I guess. I think I even saw a moisture meter app for your iphone once, if not it's surely coming soon.

My own way of handling wood does not include the use of meters. I bring some wood home, if I cut it standing I prefer to do it in the winter when the ground is frozen and the underbrush is low, it goes though a pretty rigorous process lasting multiple years for the most part until I'm confident it has settled down, (the ol' emc or was that e=mc2? Anyway). In this way it's more a question of living with the wood than it is of trying to dial in its condition.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Moisture Meters #25478 02/08/11 12:03 PM
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Quote:
Does anyone here use moisture meters to test there timbers before working on them? If so, what brands do you recommend, and what would you consider a good moisture content for stable wood?

This may be of use;
http://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/documnts/fplrn/fplrn268.pdf

I know that at this time of year the sun hits the hill at about 4 o'clock. If I'm just going home to dinner that is sufficient. If I've told a friend that I'll take them to the airport on time, I'll take my watch.

Re: Moisture Meters [Re: Greysteil] #25480 02/08/11 04:13 PM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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And I got no problem with that, you run a tight schedule maybe. I haven't owned a watch for 10 years.
Now, just calibrate your watch with the sun over the next few weeks or so, and pretty soon you wont need that either.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Moisture Meters #25485 02/09/11 12:34 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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I haven't used a watch for near 10 years, also. I do have a cell phone, though. I checked it today as it was getting dark, we pushed it to 5:00, I squeezed in a french snap around 4:50, I will have to check it in better light in the morning, it looked good in the dimming light.

As for dry timber in a frame, I just don't see the need to know exactly what the moisture is. Some special cases, log buildings, cabinets, finish work and so forth. But the frame, I just enjoy working green wood, why would I wait for it to get uncomfortable to work? There is always exceptions.

Of interest, sun spot activity shows up in trees, in the form of carbon deposits, leaving a record.

From this article:
http://scienceweek.com/2004/sb041217-4.htm


4) Each model used in the reconstruction makes a step in connecting the tree-ring 14C record(2) to sunspot number using parameters that were fixed by independent measurements (direct or indirect). Carbon-14, and some other isotopes such as the beryllium isotope 10Be, are formed from the bombardment of the atmosphere by cosmic-ray particles. The 14C in the atmosphere is converted to 14CO2 and incorporated into the tree rings as they form; the year of growth can be precisely determined from dendrochronology. Production of cosmogenic isotopes is high during periods of low solar magnetic activity. But during the Sun's active phase (with high sunspot number), the more intense solar wind -- the ions streaming out from the Sun -- deflects charged particles so that fewer of them enter Earth's atmosphere.

Sun spot activity has been well known far before the 17th century. The Mayan culture documented it, in one way they used the jaguar with it's spots to represent their sun god, that was not by chance.

Sun spot activity has been low, it is going to pick up soon.
http://www.spaceweather.com/

Re: Moisture Meters [Re: TIMBEAL] #25504 02/11/11 07:55 AM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hi,
It is speculated, so take it for what that is worth, that this is the consequence of using green timbers:


Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Moisture Meters #25505 02/11/11 09:22 AM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Cecil,

This is the famous Chesterfield crooked spire church which is located in Chesterfield, Derbyshire, England right in the epicentre of cruck country. I used to walk past this chuch every morning on my way to work at the Bryan Donkin Company and so was privy to most of the local gossip on why this spire is crooked.

Immediate observations are that it is not only crooked but it is also spiral and it is this last observation that might be key to understanding why the spire has developed a lean.

The spire is thought to have been built just before the arrival of the black death in 1349 and lay unfinished and exposed to the elements for many years. I doubt that green timber is the primary culprit more likely the design and deformation due to eccentric loading (think reciprocal framing). We would really need to see a drawing of the spire timber work to speculate on why the spire is leaning.

This church featured on a TV programme the other evening where it was explained that students from Sheffield University are part of an ongoing monitoring project to measure out of plumb movements of the spire apex. This has already demonstrated that measurements made over the past few years indicate that the tower is still on the move.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Moisture Meters #25506 02/11/11 11:00 AM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hi,
Yeah, I only walked by this building once back in the mid 80s' when I was hitch hiking from London to Edinburgh and that's when I think I remember reading on a plaque or something about the green timbers theory. It would be interesting to see the twisted and crooked timbers from inside. Also interesting to wonder about the mindset relating to these timbers of the builders back in 1349 and what would have been done then had they a moisture meter.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by Cecile en Don Wa; 02/11/11 11:01 AM.
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