Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3
Unique TF barn ? #25912 03/16/11 03:28 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
Craig Roost Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
A salvage company in Wisconsin found and purchased this barn near Manitowoc, WI which is north of Milwaukee near Lake Michigan. He has never seen a frame like this, and neither have I. So I offer this starter question...Does this design have it's origins in any known ethnic inventory?

Let me know what you all think.

Rooster

http://s453.photobucket.com/albums/qq254...mview=slideshow

P.S. This frame will be for sale in the near future...please contact me if you would like for info.


Yah-fur-sur, You-betcha, Don't-cha-know!
Re: Unique TF barn ? #25913 03/16/11 03:41 AM
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 946
D L Bahler Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 946
some elements of this barn a very German, which being from Wisconsin isn't that surprising. Other elements are very reminiscent of the barns in my area, namely the canted purlin posts.

Overall, I would guess just by looking that it is a heavily German inspired frame, as most of the 'unusual' elements seem to be typical German techniques to me.


Was de eine ilüchtet isch für angeri villech nid so klar.
http://riegelbau.wordpress.com/
Re: Unique TF barn ? [Re: D L Bahler] #25915 03/16/11 01:34 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
Craig Roost Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
To me, the most unique part of this frame is that the tails of the rafters are joined to either a full tie beam that rests on top of the sidewall top-plate, or for lack of a better description, "stub-tie-beams", which then seem to be attached to a beam that spans the bay and connects the full tie-beams about 24" from their ends. It seems like the framer is using this secondary beam to help control the roof from pushing the sidewalls out at the top. Do you also see this?...or is there a different purpose or idea behind this additional framing system?

Thanks,

Rooster
920-728-0353


Yah-fur-sur, You-betcha, Don't-cha-know!
Re: Unique TF barn ? #25916 03/16/11 04:33 PM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
Craig, there is a brief hint of a similar approach on page 44, of Historic American Timber Joinery. It is missing the inner plate.

I think this has been talked about in the past here on the forum, can't recall directly, perhaps others will.

Re: Unique TF barn ? #25930 03/18/11 01:18 AM
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 332
H
Housewright Offline
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 332
I have seen two hip roofs here in the middle of the coast of Maine with these short tie beams for the rafters to land on.

As for ethnic origin it could be German and called a stichbalken. Look at the illustration here:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkenlage#Stichbalken

Stub-tie is a good name for them.

I have been researching historic framing in Europe and I have found that framing techniques are shared by many continental European countries so it is often impossible to pin down an ethic origin to one country. for example similar stub-ties in Dutch are called "blokkeel" and in French "blochet".
In cruck framing a stub-tie like this is a "cruck spur".

Nice series of photos. Thanks

Jim


The closer you look the more you see.
"Heavy timber framing is not a lost art" Fred Hodgson, 1909
Re: Unique TF barn ? #25935 03/18/11 07:53 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 306
C
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 306
Hello,
Yeah, my first thought was also something German, except from the outside and then the more closely I looked the less sure of that idea I was. Not out of any technical considerations but more intuitively I am convinced that it might be worth looking for Scandinavian, specifically Norwegian origins. Someone, sorry I don't remember who, put up here a very nice report on simple Norwegian timber buildings which might reveal some ties.

Oh yea, there are really no ethnic distinctions to be made within Europe except for gypsies, who we all know live in those colorful wooden wagons.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Unique TF barn ? [Re: Cecile en Don Wa] #25936 03/18/11 09:28 AM
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
K
Ken Hume Offline
Member
Offline
Member
K
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 959
Hi,

To a certain extent this design has its roots in the design of timber roofs built to sit on top of masonary walls where both an inner and outer wall plate is employed with these being tied together by short ties. In the barn design the thing that is missing is a short vertical ashlar strut rising from the inner plate to the rafter.

In my opinion there is nothing particularly Germanic about this frame. In this respect I agree with Don that European roof design is fairly ethnically diverse in it's roots especially concerning early buildings. The serious student might want to consult - "Roof Frames from the 11th to 19th century" edited by Dr. Patrick Hoffsummer and published by Brepolis Publishers, Belgium. This is not cheap !

Regards

Ken Hume

Last edited by Ken Hume; 03/18/11 09:29 AM.

Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: Unique TF barn ? [Re: Ken Hume] #25945 03/19/11 09:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
Craig Roost Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
Howdy,

Well Brad_bb sent me a scanned copy of p.44, and I see the resemblance. So is the beam that runs parallel to the top-plate there to counter balance the stub-tie?...or to keep the roof system from splaying the side walls? or is the top-plate too narrow to except a notched rafter tail?...

So many question!

Thanks to all who have responded!

Rooster
920-728-0353


Yah-fur-sur, You-betcha, Don't-cha-know!
Re: Unique TF barn ? #25946 03/19/11 10:47 PM
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 447
Will Truax Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 447
Craig – A slight twist on the thread topic.

As we all know settlement patterns heavily influenced regional framing. From what I've seen, that seems to be particularly hyper local there in Wisconsin, at least in Central Wisconsin. When asking how this might be the case, I was told advertisements were placed in Europe in the mid nineteenth century, seeking to encourage emigration to a then largely empty countryside. This seems to have been so effective that towns were peopled almost en masse , with country of origin effecting town settlement in a very different way than is typical for other parts of the country, where such makeup is more commonly driven by employment opportunity. And the country of origin settlement there in Central WI seems to vary in pockets in counties, even from town to town. This so greatly, it influenced even place names, and even carpentry with pockets of such things as styles and methods of logcrafting seeming to vary over short distances, this even goes to timberframing of barns and even carpenters marks. Clearly trained carpenters were among these imigree’s and continued to practice with the methods they brought with them. Even scribe practices seemingly executed out of time, with these methods sometimes found in barn typologies of later and very much American patterns.

Have you ever seen any of the Scribed Lap Joinery barns in the Polish settled towns? I've a friend documenting them and have visited a few tagging along for surveys.


"We build too many walls and not enough bridges" - Isaac Newton

http://bridgewright.wordpress.com/

Re: Unique TF barn ? [Re: Will Truax] #25950 03/20/11 01:39 AM
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
Craig Roost Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 108
I live in south central Wisconsin and I am familiar with the the local towns that have strong ethnic origins:

Jefferson WI: German
Watertown WI: German
New Glarus WI: Swiss
Stoughton WI: Norwegian
Parts of Milwaukee WI: Poish
Mount Horeb WI: Norwegian/ Finnish

I have not seen any Polish scribed barns...but I wouldn't say no to an invitation.

Thanks,

Rooster


Yah-fur-sur, You-betcha, Don't-cha-know!
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3

Moderated by  Jim Rogers, mdfinc 

Newest Members
HFT, Wrongthinker, kaymaxi, RLTJohn, fendrishi
5134 Registered Users
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.067s Queries: 16 (0.020s) Memory: 3.2184 MB (Peak: 3.3984 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 09:52:57 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS