Hi all,

Quick question. I milled some beams with a chainsaw mill, and while they came out great, they are not perfectly square. The structure I am building right now utilizes square rule layout, with joinery spaced 2" from the outside edges. I have very little knowledge in other layout systems, and no experience in centerline, snap line, or scribe. The beams will be used as corner posts, with 5 joints each.

It seems to me that my best option is to use snap-line layout, and space the snap line 2" from my determined outside edge. Sobon describes this process in his Build a Classic Timber Framed House (pgs. 77-78). It entails leveling the piece, then using your framing square to draw level and plumb lines on the butt ends of the timber spaced 1.5" (or I will do 2") from the outside edge that represent a perfectly square (and smaller) inner timber to which the joinery can be laid out to. These lines are drawn on both sides of the timber, then connecting with snap lines.

Any advice on using this system, especially for a newbie, and especially when used in conjunction with a frame that otherwise is all standard square rule?

Also, one member that will be joining into these posts, is a tie beam with 2 thru tenons, and braces at connecting it to the posts. This particul tie beam is a timber milled on two sides, but with live edges on the top and bottom. The timber has a slight curve throughout. For layng this out, should I just snap lines representing its square top and bottom, and cut the joinery to that, including the brace pockets? Any advice for snapping accurate lines on the live-edged underside for the brace joinery?

Thanks so much,
Dan

Hi Dan, from my understanding of snap line square rule, you need not drop lines down the butt ends which means you do not need to level the timber side to side or end to end.

You may instead take the wind out of it by placing a stick in the center of the timber, a level can be used but does not have to register level, it is only to sight to. From one end lay your framing square on the top surface with the tongue hanging down. With a shim, shim the body of the square so it aligns with the level at the center of the timber. Now, gently slide the tongue to the side face of the timber until it just touches at some point on the side face, it may or may not appear square. Now mark 2" on the top face and the side. Without moving the square focus on the other face. Place another square, use the 2" body as you are using 2" references, up so it just touches the top square and mark 2" on the opposite side. You now have 2" marks on 3 faces. Repeat this on the other end. Don't forget to mark the center where the level is setting, trace a line on either side and X it out so you can refer back to it if need be. Snap your lines connecting the respectful marks at the ends. This really only takes a few minutes to do and you have straight lines to work with.

As for the tie, what I do is saw the natural curve with my band mill, as I feed into the timber I follow the natural curve of the timber by raising and lowering the band through the cut. This gives me a flat surface to use. I then snap lines as above, with the timber laid on the side, using the typically wider face as the first, best face. There is a slight deviance. This helps not much for live edge stuff. If you are not scribing the braces in then you will have typical square rule housings, depending on how round the live edge is, the housing will come into the side face, assisting in the layout. A combination of squarers will get the pocket laid out. The next question is how it is cut? Live edges are different but I feel as if I don't have the time to deal with them, heavy wane is bad enough.

You could hew off the live edge, too.

Hi Dan , I suggest that you adopt a method that you can visualize and plan all the layout and cutting before you put a stick on the horses. The most direct method, my personal prejudice, is to use level horses and level timbers. Whatever the layout or tooling issues you may have, the use of a level can define plumb or level directly on the stick.

In the case of braces and live edge joinery one cannot have uniform brace length, brace slope and uniform entry points on post and beam. I choose uniform entry distance from the post, uniform brace slope and uniform brace length while allowing the brace entry elevation to vary on the post. What you choose determines layout protocol.

Hello everyone tonight

Great thread

In my experiences using hewn timber that may be twisted, etc.,
I just placed the timber on horses or timbers, then by sighting visually I would use wedges to try and obtain the most advantageous lay of the timber from one end to the other (splitting the wind)

I would then nail on straight 1 by 2inch stick on one end along a plumb line, (in from the edge about 2.25"), this stick would be long enough to extend above the timber 12 to 16".

Going to the other end of the timber apply another 1 by 2" stick of equal length using one nail keeping the stick in from the edge an equal distance, rotate the stick to line up visually with the far one and fasten securely with a second nail.
Snap a chalk line from end to end

this line is the main line all other lines will square off this line as work progresses

this layout uses only minimal steps and easily adapted to many siuations

NH

Hello Richard,

I like this method you have described and have one question that also relates to this topic as a whole about the snap line. The question is this, why use an off-set line (2.25", 2" 1" or whatever) which I am guessing represents one or the other cheek of a tenon or side of a mortice, instead of a center line from which the tenon cheek or mortice sides are laid out? Is there a significant advantage of an off-set line over a center line?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Don, the advantage I see is you are already at one edge of the mortice/tenon. No need to measure over to define it. What is the advantage of a center snapped line?

Yes, Roger has a point with the uniform brace lengths. But it is not impossible if the live edges are not real wild, it will complicate things, no doubt. Just remember everything is based on the snapped lines, some mapping may be involved, allowing more error to occur.

Dan, the method you describe is pretty much what I was taught. Level your horses, then put your timber on them. Then put a framing square on each end, and use a penny or a nickel to adjust each of them so that the tops are in the same plane. Then mark your 2" mark, and use a combination square to mark 2" down on the side, and on the bottom. The bottom mark is tricky cause your square wants to swing and move. Do that on each end, and snap lines between the marks. I guess, the way others are doing it involves levels and marking the ends, but that's not the way I learned. What you have described for the live edge beam is right on -- basically you're choosing where the level line is on each end, then snapping a line, and laying out everything from the level live you've picked.

Yes, the pre-difined layout line was the one reason I could think of for using an off-centered reference. A center line has always been related to my use of a Japanese carpenters square. Line up the square on the ink line, trace along the opposite edge, flip it over and mark the other side. It has always been good and consistent for me. Another reason, more idiosyncratic, is that a center line is, well, centered. No consideration of left or right, east or west, north or south, up or down, the movement of the sun or rotation of the earth and other pit falls. Maybe I exaggerate... but like I said it suits the broader peculiarities of how I work.

Any other advantages of using an off-center reference line?

Greetings,
Don Wagstaff

I do see an advantage to a centered line in that you know no matter where you are, that line marks the ideal center of the timber. I could see a possibility for the occasion of getting lost or confused now and then with an off center line, usually as a matter of error of judgment. With a centered line this is a non issue.

Working in the square rule context, the off center line makes perfect sense since the mortise and tenons are oriented from a reference face ie two inch tenon two inches from reference face. Striking a line two inches from reference identifies reference from proximity, tenon cheeks and mortise side, not at all confusing.