I am new to timber framing and although I have attended some apprentice clinics and used mostly the Makita chain mortiser I am looking for opinions regarding a different approach.

First, let me say I am going to be working in mostly oak (Red primarily - sometimes white). I am doing projects just for my own enjoyment.

Only due to the $1,500 price tag I am exploring alternatives. I have looked at the old beam drills (I favor the Buckley ones) but want something powered.

I have thought about using a 1/2" angle drill (like the Milwaukee Hole Hawg) with a depth stop and then taking the chisel to the sides to complete the mortise. That way I am hoping I can use that drill for my peg holes as well. Then, when I save enough pennies I can get the chisel mortiser.

Those with some experience at this...is this a reasonable approach or will I live to regret it?

You will live to regret it.
Get an boring machine with a bit the same width as the mortise.

Doing with a power drill with a small bit will take forever.

Check out my videos on YouTube and see how fast we bore holes with a boring machine.
http://www.youtube.com/user/JimRogers117?feature=mhee

You can use a spade handle or a right angle like the hole hog with a bullseye level mounted on the drill. With a leveled timber and the plumb drill you should have no problem roughing out your mortices. Always remember, plumb is plumb and level is always level. Gravity will never change (that goes into another topic)... But all that said if you plan on doing multiple frames, the chain mortiser will pay for itself with efficiency and accuracy.

Will Denton

Have fun with that Hole Hawg.

My latest mortice, with a hand cranked boring machine. 2"x10.5"x4.25" bored in 6 minutes, with out a struggle, can be done faster if you push it. Chopped out and finished in a total of 15 minutes. White Pine. Brace pocket. Clean, accurate and consistent depth. Hand tools. Fun, no struggles. Efficient and accurate.

Well said....

Use a plumbers bit... similar to a forestner but with a lead screw. No effort needed. I am all about doing it how they did 100 years ago... but to make a profit I like to use power tools over hand powered tools when ever I can. A hole hawg with some masking tape will beat a boring machine over the long haul. One mortise is one thing... take the average over 100 mortises into the frame. You will find that power tools will be more effective. The more frames you add...the more profitable you want to be you move from a bit and brace to boring machine - makita chain mortiser to a cross grain mortiser. If you are doing these frames for pleasure go ahead and bore them...

I strongly disagree. I work almost exclusively with hand tools as a professional timber framer. There are many things that have to be taken into consideration when comparing power vs. hand.

If power tools have an edge in speed, how do they make up for the substantial additional cost and maintenance? I paid $240 for my boring machine and bit, a mere fraction of the cost of a chain mortiser. How many mortises to break even on that investment? If you look at just the time of the actual boring, they do look impressive, but what you aren't taking into consideration is the time spent adjusting them, lubing them, and having the chain sent out for sharpening. I was involved in a project this summer and all of the mortises were bored with a Mafell. I had to go around cleaning them all up so the tenons would fit. Tools that reference flat and square timbers really lose ground when working timbers that aren't, and in a hurry. Let's save hewn and or riven timbers for another day.

Development of skill set is another area that comes to harm when the over application of power is considered. If we jump from green framer to power tool champion, when do we have time to learn how to "pat the cat" as Tim would say? That would be learning to read and accommodate the grain of the wood. If we divorce ourselves from the craft and force the wood to comply to our perception of what we think it has to offer, then why are we using wood in the first place? We should let the wood tell us how it should best be used.

Having said all that, I don't want you to think I'm a Luddite shunning all things modern and electron dependent. I do use a few power tools here and there when it really makes a difference. For instance I use the HoleHawg in places I dare not risk destroying my boring machine bits, like a nail infested timber. A cordless drill is always handy somewhere about the shop as well for making jigs and fixtures.

denton4th, this is not directed at you personally, it is directed at the concept that a power tool MUST be more effective. We need to think in terms that a power tool MAY be more effective.

Dave,
I'd like to request a topic about this subject of power tools, and when the use of hand tools is more effective. This is a subject that interests me. I love hand tools, far more than power tools, and have long been convinced that a small scale operation is better off with them.
I think it'd do us all some good to have a genuine discussion of costs, efficiency, etc.
It's perhaps time we run all of our tools through a good cost benefit analysis to see what's actually worth it, and when things really pay for themselves.

DLB

I've often wondered where to draw the line for hand tools. My other work requires me to be a "power tool champion" as Dave says. I'm comfortable with power tools. I know what I can and can't do with them. I don't know that I have the same training/skill with hand tools. I'm working on a project right now out of cedar. I haven't worked much with cedar before. With power tools there is no change. With hand tools cutting across grain is a challenge. It seems any hand tool not beveled to a 25 degree or less is useless. Not wanting to change the bevel on all my tools I've been working with a smaller set. I've cut the whole frame without using half my toolset. Having put my slick aside, I pick up my axe. I've learnt a lot that I thought I knew about working with the grain. I use different tools than I would with spruce, pine, fir or oak.
I've seen framers work with skill saws, mortise machines, drills, chainsaws, handsaws, etc. I think whats important is find techniques that work well for the wood your working with and your set of skills/aptitudes.

Choices in design also change what tools are most practical.

That post was my opinion, and I still stand by it. As for the frame cut by the mafell... its all about tolerances. Where to take the line and by how much. Where to leave a little slop and where to be dead on. In my opinion a mortise generally should not have to be cleaned up with hand tools after a mortiser. Power tools can be rigged to use for irregular timber, with the use of levels. I mentioned be for a bullseye level on a hole hawg, you can also use a small torpedo on the rails of a mortiser. I prefer to use power tools, but I do use hand tools everyday in the shop. Every tool has a time and a place. The frames that I work on power tools do most of the grunt work.

I have no doubt that power tools rule the profit oriented world. Everyone has a comfort zone. Why stop at hand held power tools? Go for the big times, CNC machines, full on shop with a 20 man crew, if profit is the reason.

For sure "that" post was pure opinion. With no exaggeration, and into the 1000s of mortices with the same boring machine or two, I can attest it is no hobby. I do enjoy the work. I can almost say the machines have not had to be sent out for maintenance or sharpening and keeps on producing and will into the unseen future. I once had a small, local machine shop work on a gear change on one machine. I also recently dropped one and broke the hand crank, I put off fixing it for a while, then fixed it in less than half an hour. Good as new. I would come near tears if the Mafell should befall the same fate.

As for efficiency and the hand crank machines, there are many things one can practice to enhance its abilities. A foot stool is a simple addition, something to stand on while straddling the timber and repositioning to the next hole. Knowing what bit size/mortice is really needed for the joinery at hand. A machine with the proper gear ratio and a bit with the correct feed screw will make a difficult job, simple. You learn to place your joints in clear wood whenever possible. Frozen wood you predrill pilot holes, 1/8" with a cordless drill, making bit location a given. Know the boundaries, what is acceptable and when you have over bored in a spot. I do most of the grunt work! But not without a little forethought.

One of my most memorable times spent with a Makita was how my lower back felt after just a few mortices, something I don't experience with my hand cranked machine. Mostly contributed to my lack of knowledge of how to properly handle it, I think.

Cleaning out the round holes is another aspect to consider. This can be easily made simple and efficient with the right approach. It is not done solely with a chisel. I have taken the shovel approach, lately. I will leave it at that. I will add I am thinking of adding a long handle to my corner chisel and some foot pegs to stand/jump on......

I can't wait to see that.....on youtube......

Tim,
There is a difference to maximizing prophets, and maximizing efficiency with what resources you have.

You maximize profits by making your company big. If you want to net 75000 a year or more, then you might consider heading a big time operation.

But if you just prefer to be small, and are content to not get rich, then you stick with a smaller crew, like 3 or 4 guys.

With a smaller crew, it is still very important to consider the costs of every aspect of your operation, and minimize your overhead expenses. This maximizes the profits you can make. With a small business, it is still very much the case in this modernized world that by being willing to lay aside conveniences and do a little more work, you can put more money in your pocket.

So what I am saying is that every individual small timber framer should really set back and analyze his operations. Sit down and crunch some numbers, and see what tools are actually worth having. I think a lot of you would be really surprised if you did this to learn which of your conveniences are actually costing you money.

These expenses include the initial purchase cost, spread out over a number of years. Maintenance, replacement parts (like blades, belts, etc.) the time to run them, setup time, pack up time, the extra effort of cleaning up sawdust that flies hin and yon compared to shavings or chips that fall right down. The electricity to run them. The insurance policies in case they get stolen, All of these and more are factors.

Then compare that to the costs involved with hand tools, which is a whole lot smaller of a list. Purchase cost, maintenance, time to cut a joint, and a few others.

It might take a little bit more time to cut a joint, but that doesnt really mean that it is costing you more money once you account for everything.

I have both a boring machine and a chain mortiser. I fully competent and efficient with a chain mortiser. I would like to be able to say the same with a boring machine. Things like drilling a hole before starting in frozen wood, and what the best screw is for different woods are things I need to learn. The thirst for that knowledge is why I participate in these forums. It is also why I should participate in guild events.

I would like to one day cut frames as efficiently with hand tools as I can with power tools. It is a better way to live.

The choosing of which tools are the most cost effective is also an issue with hand tools as well as power tools. For those of you that use axes, what styles and shapes do you find most useful and for what joints?

Leslie, I use an axe on all joints with the exception of non-housed stuff, as in scribed mortices. I have for the first time in over 15 years cut a bunch of 3" wide mortices, I used an axe chop the excess off one side in the mortice. 1-1/2" x 2 at the ends and a 2" down the length.

I run some flip video today, nothing up loaded, yet. My corner chisel worked to a point, I snapped the long handle off which ended the experiment. It was only a 7/8" square stock rounded and stuck into the socket. It was like a fishing rod, almost. It need to be at least 5/4", I am going to try again. I must say it did work but not as well as I had wished. Trial and error, it needs more trial.

7 hours today, some fooling with the video, verbal banter, the usual, 22 mortices with housings, Brace pockets, 16- 2" x 10.5" x 4.5"deep. Post mortice, 6- 3" x 10" x 6.5" deep, these are not fully done an hour tomorrow will finish them up. Labor force, two and a half men, like the tv show. Some number for the accountant, DL.

Everyone, thank you so much for the information you have provided. It is very helpful.

Could I ask you to address the subject of the species of timbers that you work with? As I stated in my initial question I intend to be using red and white oak mostly. Do your tool selections change when cutting mortises in those woods?

I work mostly soft woods, pine being the easiest to work. Spruce is one of the toughest, cedar not far behind, larch is hard and pitchy it gums up the saw teeth. All woods have their own characteristics, from smell to workability. All work harder when dry, I work them green.

From what little work I have done with red oak, I would say it is fine to work with hand tools. Mortice size is reduced for the most part to 1-1/2". No question it is harder to work but in comparison to spruce in some part it is easier. Spruce and cedar are similar in that they are like a sponge, your tools edge need to be dropped down to 25 degrees or so. When paring the end grain it has a tendency to give way instead of being shaved, you won't see this in hard woods, unless it is dry. Knots in any wood are a bugger, try to avoid them.

Tool selection is a personal choice, not right or wrong. From my perspective if you start out with hand tools, they will teach you far more than a power tool. If you can work wood with hand tool then move onto power tool you will gain an understanding unattainable with the power tool, giving an advantage in uncounted ways.

I've worked with Pine, Spruce, Hemlock, Red & White Oak, Hickory, Black Cherry, Black Birch & Red Maple. I use old hand cranked boring machines, a Millers Falls for the mortices and a Boss for the peg holes.
I honestly couldn't imagine a Hole Hawg doing the job as well or any faster.

I don't like the flying sawdust from a Makita mortiser. Somehow always ends up in my eye, and all over my clothes, in my pockets etc. I also get annoyed with cords run all over, especially when I want to sweep(if in shop). I like the old boring machines(though I have not tried to work at a production rate, only at my pace/leisure). Dry white oak is harder to bore than green white pine, but as has been said, you can make up for that with a correct gear ratio on your boring machine, and a sharp bit makes a big difference. The charactersitics of drilling/boring, and sawing and parring, don't all get harder or easier in a given type of wood. Sawing in a dry hardwood may be easier than green, while the parring may be harder(like on a tenon). They are different types of cutting. There aren't any that can't be worked. If your client want's reclaimed dry oak, you can give them that, it may be a little bit more work, but so? If you are trying to provide quantity, sure green white pine is probably easiest. I'm going to build my own frame from dry hardwood timbers. For me, the finished product from these old growth timbers will be worth it. I'm also going to spend extra time on the finsh.
I would suggest that you not be daunted by the material you choose, it's all workable. Unless you're very out of shape, I would also recommend you get a boring machine to try(Jim Rogers can hook you up with a good one). We tend to prefer Millers Falls or Boss machines. I started out with a snell. It's useable, but do prefer the aforementioned as they are a little bit more rigid. You can always sell it later if you want to. They don't tend to lose value as much as a power tool. Keep is oiled and make sure you don't have too much slop in the gears or bearings... they've lasted 100+ years already...

has any body every used or seen a twillbill(sp?) in use to make a mortise

Hi csi,

I think that you mean "twybill" or "bisaigue" which is the French equivalent name.

I own and have used one of these tools and these are not used to "make" a mortice but are used to clean out a mortice. Mortices are generally made by drilling a hole at either end and then using a morticing chisel to quickly and fairly roughly chop out the wood between the holes. The mortice corners are squared up and cleaned out using the morticing chisel end of the twybill which is then rotated through 180 degrees to use the paring chisel end to clean up the sides. Body weight is more than sufficient to power both ends of the twybill and being a long tool the timbers are best worked on the floor rather than on horses.

Regards

Ken Hume

I don't think that twybil and bisaigue are the same thing. Similar purposes, but different tools.

Hello,

The origin of the tools is the same. The English word twybil can be traced to its German roots - that is not to say the tool itself is originally German - twy or zwei = two, bil or beil = axe: so twybil = double axe). The handled version came first and whether or not it was thrust or swung, or most probably both, is difficult to say. Later the wood handle was done away with but the short socket remains as a grip used in thrusting and pairing.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Hi Dave,

There are two versions of the English Twybill with one being identical to the bisaigue and the other being much shorter as used by green woodworkers in the production of sheep hurdles.

Please provide some reasoning for the expression of your opinion so that I can provide a more informed reply.

Regards

Ken Hume

Ken,
I am aware that in America, the word Twybil refers only to the smaller version, and the bisaigue is unknown.

Don,
The Twybil and Bisaigue do, in fact, have a German origin. The first tool along these lines to show up was the medieval German Kreuzaxt, or 'cross axe' which is basically identical to the later twybil. This tool developed in different regions into 3 distinct tools, the English twybil which was more or less the original, the French bisaigue which is more or less a gigantic version of it, and the German Stichaxt which did away with the mortising chisel end. These tools reflected the needs of the framers who used them, the stichaxt for example seems to have arisen around the time that the Germans switched to smaller timbers and shallow mortises. It is essentially a slick ideally suited to the German method. The bisaigue adapted to the large French joinery (in comparison to German) and from what I understand appeared in France around one of the times when they occupied the German-speaking Alsace.