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Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #27884 01/06/12 05:22 PM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Richard,

Both your and DLB's reply has got me thinking that maybe I have asked the wrong question and instead I should have asked for the best way to create / shape a cruck blade since this might be more easily undertaken with the blade lying "flat" on the ground.

Small cruck blades would be 16" or so diameter at the butt tapering to 12" dia or so at the top end and would probably be about one rod long (16 - 17ft). Where the blades need to rise to peak at the ridge then they might need to be up to 28 - 30ft long with varying degree of elbowing.

I came across a picture today of The Barley Mow pub at Long Wittenham. This is just down the hill from the Wittenham Clumps project that was undertaken by the TFG a few years ago alongside the Carpenters Fellowship and this photo shows the exposed cruck blades of the timber frame following a fire in the thatched roof during the 70's.

Barley Mow Pub - Long Wittenham

The Barley Mow cruck blades are made from Wytch Elm and currently I have a number of standing dead elm snags at the woodlot which have recently succumbed to Dutch Elm disease. Elm is quite a stringy wood to work having more than its fair share of both cross and wild grain.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Ken Hume] #27888 01/07/12 01:24 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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hello everyone tonight

Ha ha Ken that is a better description and the picture sure helps

it sounds to me like the crucks are round, because you refer to their diameters top and bottom, but here again I take nothing for granted maybe you are referring to their square measurement,

I believe the biggest challenge here would be to make all the crucks's curves similar so that the whole building would be symetrical, here again I would produce a pattern out of light material that one could lay on the rough blank as he worked to check the progress of the journeyman or tradesman

It would be nice to have yet just a bit more information about the finished appearance, especially if the crucks are flat on one side, or square, or round

best of the new year

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #27889 01/08/12 01:34 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hello everyone tonight

Ken--our elms have all but disappeared here too, but the specie is fairly hardy, and new young trees are pushing up in fence rows, and it seems to me that some of them are resistant to the disease, because theyare inhabiting areas near where dead elms were, and seem healthy.

They were really majestic trees, we had 3 or 4 varieties around here, white elm, swamp elm, rock elm, and then there seemed to be ones that lived in the open areas, and had slightly different characteristics--really brushy, and well forget about splitting them--impossible--

You mentioned that the crucks were made from elm, in my books that is the strongest and toughest wood around, if you wanted a timber that would carry a heavy load--elm would have been your choice

At the entrance to UCV they planted a row of English Elm that seemed to do good for a few years but eventually succumed to an unusually cold winter and spring. One thing that I did notice was that they held their leaves all winter which seemed unusual, it was just like they didn't know what to do in that respect. They were quite curly in appearance and different than our native species

My dad used to say a place for everything and everyhing had its place

Our set of sleighs that we used for many years to haul out wood and logs, had oak runners, but the bunks were elm, the stakes were elm, and the reaches were rock elm, there was just no breaking them

I can remember quite well rounding the sleigh up high, and then heading for home through the gullies and ditches, over stones and large drifts, and as the sleigh twisted one way and then the other you could hear the sound of the bunks taking a beating, you would hold your breath as the sleighs tipped and dived deep into the snow, the team seemed to know what was up and they would lay into the harness, the snow flying from their shod hooves, actually they seemed to enjoy it after standing for so long in the cold waiting to hear the command from my uncle a slight tap on their flanks and we were away

When we reached the unloading area I am going to tell you, they would be well steamed up

My father when he built the barn in 1946, used all elm 3" by 6"'s for the joists, man would they bow down when the mow was loaded to capacity,

well got to go


enjoy

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #27890 01/08/12 02:13 AM
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D L Bahler Offline
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NH,
How, in your experience, does elm hew?

I never learned about elm. I can easily walk around our woods out here and tell you all the useful trees and what they are good for, but I don't know how to identify the elm varieties. Because we don't have them, and what few we do don't get very big before they die off. So it is not a tree that is useful to us any more. Which is sad.


Was de eine ilüchtet isch für angeri villech nid so klar.
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Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: D L Bahler] #27891 01/08/12 07:47 PM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Richard & DLB,

Historic rude cruck blades, purlins, ridge and tie beams are generally made from boxed heart materials and hence the dimensions quoted above are for the typical round stock needed prior to conversion to boxed heart. Cruck blades can be found with lots of waney edge and are quite variable in their profile with mixtures of different shapes (elbowed, ogee, straight, etc.) scribed together to form the cross frames. Differing cruck profiles result in cross frames that do not necessarily provide an even platform for running side purlins & ridge and this can give rise to difficulties in providing a location for wind brace foot mortices so sometimes it's necessary to add blocking pieces and / or struts as required to make the frame geometry work.

Our elms died out in a major way back in the 1970's but as you mention above left alone they will grow back from suckers springing from the rootstock (not the stool). In turn these trees have started to die back again after 25-30 years regrowth but by this time they had already put on sufficient girth and height to provide sufficient stock to hew out one good purlin from same. After examining 5-600 year old elm frame components I think that there is every reason to believe that Dutch elm disease is not a new phenomenon and that the medieval carpenters were maybe just making the best possible use of available timber stock during phases of elm die back.

I will try to remember to take a few photos of the elm growing in our woodlot.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Ken Hume] #27893 01/08/12 11:27 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Hi Ken, correct me if this is not the case. Some crucks were shaped then rip sawn into two sticks, allowing a matching pair. A question, was this ever done and instead of setting the matching pair in the same bent did they ever use them next to each other on the same side of the building, say bents 2 & 3?

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: TIMBEAL] #27894 01/09/12 02:24 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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well hello everyone tonight

Good conversation keep it going!

One thing that I wonder about was how far spread the growth of elm is around the globe especially in the scandinavian countries

Hewing Elm--well I can honestly say I have never hewed elm but have used lots of sawn elm lumber and small timbers, like 6 by6's and 8 by 8's--for support posts they can bear quite a load, as well as for joists

I cut down a really large elm in our bushlot it was approaching 48" in diameter--the butt timber cut out---if my memory is correct--36-- 3 by 6's 16 feet long to reinforce the hay mow floor when we began to load it with baled hay

The single butt timber was all the sleigh could handle, we rolled it on with chains, and when it dropped about 6" from the cants to the bunks the sleighs settled right down to the hard earth through the frozen snow, it took quite a pull to get the sleighs up and going, but the team seemed to enjoy the challenge

another thing I remember was when the tree hit the ground one of theside limbs was driven right into the earth through the frozen layer, and it stayed there for quite a number of years

During the seaway construction the area being flooded had to be clear cut of all trees, At Aultsville just west of Cornwall stood one of the largest trees in Eastern Ontario, it was an elm and it was 6 feet in diameter, it stood along the old canal bank. Unfortunately it had to be cut down but a slice from the tree was preserved at UCV, I used to look at it and wonder what things and events the tree had witnessed.

The growth rings dated it to well before the coming of UEL's to the area, and probably witnessed the skirmishes during the years leading up to settlement in this area--a real shame I supose, but the dutch elm disease probably would have done it in anyway

Well got to go


enjoy

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #27895 01/09/12 08:20 AM
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Ken Hume Offline
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Hi Tim,

Never say never !

Please check out the picture of a very early cruck frame located near my home in North Hampshire that has gable end oak cruck blades that are rip (see) sawn down through the heart to form a book matched pair set in the same cross frame. This is very easy to determine simply by looking at the mirror image of knots and other defects as they appear opposite directly one and other.

Halved cruck blades

I am not aware of halved cruck blades being used along side each other i.e. on the same side of the timber-frame but that does not mean that this has never happened and it might well afford some benefits in terms of providing similar alignment arrangements for carrying side purlins. This could provide a very practical solution for a single bay frame.

Richard,

Your comments about the St Lawrence seaway / UCV elm is interesting. I have noted that one of the 20+ year old English elms that I felled in my own garden nearly 10 years ago has annual growth ring widths of one half to three quarters of an inch. It appears that elm can achieve these remarkable growth rates during the early years of regrowth from suckers presumably because the main root system has remained intact and is still fully functional even after Dutch elm disease has killed off the main stem. What did you observe in the early growth rates of the UCV elm ?

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #27896 01/09/12 08:22 AM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hello,

Elm, as we call it here, is even more common throughout Asia, widely used and highly valued in Japanese building construction as well as furniture. Some years back, down there at the Amsterdam lumber yard they were selling stacks and stacks of old doors imported from China, (no doubt some village or villages, were demolished to make way for a factory complex or hydro electricity damn), most of these were also made of Elm wood - Iep or Ulm as they call it here. I have noticed it is common in the landscapes of Central Asia and have seen it growing widely in Western China.

I think in Europe you would find it growing no further north than probably the southern halve of Sweden. Here in Holland there is a ban on transporting freshly cut Elm with the bark still on it in connection with this mould there which leads to the tree's dying. It seems this sickness is gaining strength from out of the south as the temperate zone expands along with the warming of the Earth.

There is a section of the barn here where the walls are planked with Elm wood and they show a great deal more worm damage throughout, spint and heart wood, than the pine planks next to them.

I have used Elm wood in making furniture and it is a fine and easy wood to work with hand tools in both wet and dry states so I can guess that hewing in it would pose no particular problems.

Here is some Elm wood I've had out back leaning up against a Willow drying now for two or three years. Nice thick planks.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by Cecile en Don Wa; 01/09/12 08:30 AM.
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Cecile en Don Wa] #27900 01/10/12 01:07 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hello every one tonight

Hi Ken

Unfortunately I never really took notice of the thickness of the growth rings I wish I had, maybe I will have a chance at another time, if I do I will report my findings

Thanks everyone for coming on line with all your great inputs

Well today I have cut a piece of naturally bent (grown) ash that I think I will use for the handsleigh's curved runners--have to get that project on the go

Enjoy

NH

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