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Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: D L Bahler] #27995 01/24/12 03:49 PM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hello,

Yes, so first will be to make a vertical plane of one of the edges, then hew the side opposite parallel to that one before rotating the blank 90 degrees onto one of the planes and squaring off what will be the underside of the gutter. This blank that the gutter will come from is actually a quarter section with the pith split out. In removing the pith section, it separated nicely along a single growth ring leaving a naturally concave surface and that is what I want to maintain if possible, for the gutter. This may or may not actually work and in the case that is doesn't I use first a gutter adz then smooth out the bottom with a plane. Sometimes there will also be a profile planed on the outer lower edge though not this time.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Cecile en Don Wa] #27996 01/25/12 01:13 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hello everyone tonight

Thanks Don for the clarification on the gutter, and how you are going about its manufacture it is very interesting about removing the growth ring to leave a concave depression for the rain. I do believe that is no doubt the best explanation I have ever heard dealing with that subject~!!

I wonder if any of you guys have ever heard of a gutter hidden in the edge of the roof, At UCV the Robertson house had such a gutter, created out of a full length timber, which was lined with sheet lead.

Replacing the timber was a job handed to me quite a number of moons ago now, and was in conjunction with a roof replacement, the sheet lead run up under the shingles a ways to catch any drips

The timber itself was quite large, and rested on blacksmith made drift pins that were driven into the upper plate of the house.

The timber was massive enough to create the whole cornice , and the facia and other rows of trim were applied right to it, it was impossible to tell that there was a rain gutter from the ground level.

It really was not a good form of construction because any leaks were directed to the interior of the frame,

I noticed that the lead sheets had expanded and contracted ever so slightly, and eventually cracks would appear in places. It looked to me like some caulking had been used over the years to keep it waterproof.

Enjoy

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #28006 01/27/12 01:26 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hello everyone tonight

Hi Don

I was just wondering and for the sake of anyone else looking in who may also be wondering, could you please explain what your rain gutter was mounted on along the edge of the roof?

turning to another subject--- Historic Metal shingles--

A few years ago now I was involved with a roof replacement that had wooden shingles, but the slope was too low, and right where the roof met the porch it always leaked just a bit no matter what we seemed to do, so the decision was made to apply metal shingles which were historically correct for the period, the project was handed to me

It was sort of a fun project because there were a number of factors that came into play, mainly the size of the tin plate manufactured at that time, along with the type of metal, and how they were fastened, and how they were laid

I suspect Ken that you probably have run across examples in your travels, would you like to expand on this subject?

enjoy

NH

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #28007 01/27/12 05:37 PM
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Hi Richard,

Please check out the panoramic photo link below which will let you see some typical metal roofs commonly found on barns and other agricultural buildings here in the UK. Though not particularly scenic this type of galvanised corrugated steel roof has managed to preserve vernacular building at very low cost. The box framed farmhouse on the right is probably early 17th century.

English Tin Roofs

I have never seen metal shingles on any roofs in England though folded seem galvanised steel and copper roof coverings are becoming quite popular these days.

Regards

Ken Hume


Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #28008 01/27/12 09:36 PM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hello,

I gotta keep switching up to the flat mode on this one. But anyway, That rain gutter you have depicted seems similar in form to the one here at the house though instead of being massive, the trough here is made up of individual planks and moulded lengths forming a cornice, and lined with what they call zinc. The zinc plates run up onto the roofing planks, under the insulation, battens and roof tiles and at the outside curls over the woodwork offering good protection until the zinc is punctured. It should always be free floating, that is not nailed or clamped because it does expand and contract a lot according to temperature and we never use it in lengths over 1100 cm. I have tried showing how it is put together and attatched here.
The supports for the gutters are in fact interesting and varied. My favorite and the method I used in building a workshop, (pictured in the background of the picture), once was just to extend the ceiling beams beyond the outside of the brick walls. The blokgoot or massive wooden gutters simply rested atop these and in fact were so sturdy I could, and would, walk along the gutters. I've also used iron supports newly forged and, when I could find them authentic ones. These having a long enough end to be bricked into the wall with a sort of tail dropping down and arching towards and against the wall for support

There is the one there in front and more in the dark shadow along the side of the house if you look closely and can see them. The other one, of the ones worth mentioning, is sort of in between, being short straight wooden supports usually profiled, extending into the brick just under the wall plate with the gutters usually standing freely atop. Anyway this is what I'm dealing with presently.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by Cecile en Don Wa; 01/27/12 09:44 PM.
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Cecile en Don Wa] #28009 01/28/12 01:17 AM
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northern hewer Offline OP
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Hello everyone tonight

Well, well--both great responses--

Ken thanks for your photo very interesting, but the roofing is quite modern--I agree though it is a very inexpensive roof covering if that is the way one wants to go, but really I am surprised that you are not familiar with historic metal shingle roofing, we have many examples surviving here, especially in the city of "Old Quebec", I also have seen old photos and paintings with examples of metal shingles applied on the angle to the horizontal of the roof plane, on many buildings spread across Ontario, which of course was the Area of Upper Canada prior to 1867 which is the date of confederation, and the time that the present provincial structures were formed

Metal shingles in the historic sense was widespred here during the 1800's, and one of the reasons was the fire protection they afforded any building they were applied to.

Another interesting thing is that the metal plates that were used then came from the mother country England, and had special characteristics in its chemical makeup, and special sizing I suspect governed by the machinery that produced it at that time

Thanks again Ken for coming in it is always nice to hear from you


Don--

Thanks also for you photo and the comment on rain gutters and what I found quite interesting the metal supports with the decorative supporting tail that run downwards toward the wall surface

looking in the background of your photo your workshop's brickwork is also quite interesting, I have never seen anything quite like it, and is quite striking in appearance the way it seems to blend and continue upwards toward the chimney's summit.

Did you copy from an original design or is it of your own thinking

The Way the gutter on the building in the foreground is built into the edge of the roof structure is also quite interesting and remarkable

Well thanks to both of you fellows I'm sure everyone will enjoy

NH

Last edited by northern hewer; 01/28/12 01:20 AM.
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #28012 01/28/12 01:21 PM
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Hi Richard,

I too spotted the "tumbling in" employed on the gable brickwork of Don's workshop. This is also seen here occasionally on well built buildings and notably on chimneys and buttresses.

I have thought more about the use of metal sheets and now recall that large 4ft x 2ft galvanised metal sheets were used to apply a cheap weather seal to the exterior of planked wooden siding that was applied the the buck of post mills. This looks dreadful and even worse results in the decay of both the wooden siding and post mill timber frame due to the trapping of moisture within the body of the mill.

Regards

Ken Hume

Last edited by Ken Hume; 01/28/12 01:24 PM.

Looking back to see the way ahead !
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Ken Hume] #28018 01/29/12 11:46 AM
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Cecile en Don Wa Offline
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Hello,

This galvanized iron sheet material is, next to wood and clay, my favorite building material! I really like it, maybe because of the association it has of exploring old mining camps and desert ghost towns in my youth. I try to collect and use it around the house here when and where I can but must say I get the sense that many of the neighbors don't share my appreciation for this great material, being caught up in their bourgeois pretentiousnesses. But I sense this is not what Richard is referring to anyway. Still, I believe it is a much underutilized - and aesthetically underrated - building material.

The brick situation there. Yes, we call it vlecht or vlechten in verb form and it is, or was, fairly common from around the 17th century until the cost ratios between material and labour got flipped. I must credit my bricklayer friend with the willingness to make the extra effort there. It's not only decorative but functionally it ties the top line of the gavel into the face for more strength. I think equally as interesting is the over-all pattern of how the brick are layed in what they call kruisverband or cross bonded we can maybe call it. The corner of every third layer of brick starts with a three quarter length brick, and then half length, or the short length of the brick is used to complete that layer, the following layer being all full length brick and the one following that being all short or half length bricks and then the sequence repeated. I can no longer look at a brick wall with simply overlapping layers and find it interesting or beautiful.

Greetings,

Don Wagsaff

Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Cecile en Don Wa] #28021 01/30/12 02:27 AM
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Last edited by northern hewer; 01/30/12 02:41 AM.
Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: northern hewer] #28022 01/30/12 02:32 AM
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Last edited by northern hewer; 01/30/12 02:40 AM.
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