Hello,

I am now "playing"with my tools building a small tool shed. Its so addicting that I decided to go ahead with my cabin project. I would like to modify the 16'x 22'saltbox plan from Steve Chapel's book. I want to shrink the bent to 16', adding one bent in the middle. I am also looking to lengthen the front posts to 14 feet to gain height for bedroom upstairs. It will suit my site better, and allow for better view and light.It will be my first frame ( beside the mini tool shed). I am looking for advice how I need to modify the sizing of timbers and timber schedule.

Thank you,

Serge

The cabin will be built on a hill with a walkout. The Saint Lawrence River is on the north and east sides of this triangular shaped lot. The timbers should be made of spruce, or if I can find some white pine or red oak, but more likely spruce available locally.

This is the original timber schedule for the 16' x 22'. I need to figure how to re- size for 22' x 16'. Any suggestions?

QT
Ext posts front 7 x 10 12' 2
Ext posts rear 7 x 10 8' 2
Interior posts 7 x 7 8' 2
Top plates 6 x 9 16' 2
Wall plates 7 x 10 16' 1
Tie beams 7 x 12 22' 2
Principal rafters rear 7 x 10 16' 2
Principal rafters front 7 x 10 12' 2
King posts 7 x 10 6' 2
Queen posts 7 x 8 6' 2
Collar ties 7 x 10 8' 2
Purlins 6 x 7 16' 6
Joists 6 x 7 12' 5
Summer beams 9 x 13 16' 1
Braces 3 x 8 4' 10

I will frame the floor with timber, so I also need to figure what I need for first and second floor.

Other questions, any alternatives to oak for braces? How about pegs?

I lent my Chappel book out a few years ago and have not seen it since. And I can not remember the frame details. Salt box configuration?

Not sure why you would change the orientation but keep the same foot print? I am sure Steve put those plans out with thoughtful content. Will you be adding additional support under the now 22' tie beams? Have you added or take away a bent?

One aspect I notice with SC's timber sizes is the 7" width material, he is mill ruling with no housings. If you are scribing or mill ruling this will work, but if you are housing an inch or half inch then you will come across problems with tenons bottoming out against each other. I would suggest 8" widths for 1/2" housing and 9" widths for 1" housings.

Brace stock.... are you planning on cutting curves into the 3x8 brace stock? I have switched to 3x5 spruce brace stock if the brace length is under 50-15/16" long and 3x6 if over that, to a certain length, then up to 4" stock if bigger is required. I like the 3x5 brace stock as the brace pocket is much shorter than with material in the 8" range, it is a time savings/expense thing. Straight brace stock, btw, unless organic shapes are present in which I chuck out all time savings/expenses cause I have seen brace pockets up to 4' long.

Pegs... I am using mostly 3/4 hardwood pegs, What does SC suggest? Spruce has been seen used traditionally but usually in full inch sizes and up. Red oak, maple are a couple choices you should have, selected out of the finest fire wood. If you have any joints in true tension then they need to be sized accordingly, but most joints are in compression.

Back in 05 I drew this frame from his book:



If you change the depth from 22' to 16' the rafters will be lower and it will make the head room on the second floor lower.
Are you aware of that?

If you make the front post taller to make up the head room what are you going to do about the back rafters?
Are you going to change the roof pitch?

Jim Rogers

Thank you, I am glad to hear feedback as its my first project and I want to get this right. I did post pictures of the plan from the book on this my blog link

I plan to add a bent so no more than 10' span.

I will make sure to get some maple for pegs, would maple do for braces?

Serge

Nice drawing Jim, thank you. Yes I was planning to change the roof pitch, especially since reducing the depth will lower it further than it is now. I had overlooked that, I am glad you pointed this out.

Serge

Serge:
I was the tool guy who came out to Heartwood on Thursday.
Jim Rogers

Cool, you had awesome tools ! I am just learning, but gaining a real appreciation for hand tools.

Serge

Ok, well I think you're going to have to rethink some of your ideas. Or I didn't understand what you really want; because I tried to do what you said and it doesn't look very good to me.



And:



I moved the far bent out to 20' and put in one in the middle.
I raised the front top plate up until the front post with tenons can be cut from a 14' timber.
I moved the back wall in to make it 16' from the front wall.
And I rotated the rear rafters down to meet the tie beam as they did before.

I personally don't think this is going to work.

If you're going to have a center bent then there is no need to make the second floor joists go from front to back. You should rotate them and go the short way from tie to tie or gable to gable.
There isn't enough room for the stairway unless you aren't using a stair way and just a loft ladder. But I really don't like the looks of the back roof slope at all.

If it were me, I'd add a back wall plate or move the plate that's there up. And make the tie end into the side of the post like the front end of the tie.
Also you're front post is taller now and that makes it more than 4' above the tie. This requires that the braces be longer and they have to be tension braces. And there should be one in the center bent as well. Which really screws up the loft floor plan.
I didn't draw one in but I believe you would need it.

Jim Rogers

Hi Jim,

Wow this looks good, thank you. I am impressed, you really mastered this software. As you pointed, my ideas are not really well thought, but apart from the fact that there is now room for the stairway, the design looks pretty good to me. I will definitively not need to worry about the snow piling up, especially since so so windy on the shore of Gulf of Saint Lawrence. I have to finish marking papers,( end of the quarter) but I will get back to you. At the end, it maybe easier to stick to the original plan, but I like the 16 x 20 dimension.

Serge

Hi Jim,

As I said, I like this plan you drew, but I am still debating if I want to deal the the complexity of changing the dimensions ( its a lot more complicated than I thought). Maybe it would make sense to go with the original dimension. I am l also thinking that I should build what we build during the Heartwood workshop this summer, 16' x 20'. What dimension timbers did you plan to frame the main floor and the second floor when you drew this plan? 20 x 16 salt box? How about on this 16 x 20, what would you frame the floors with?

Thank you,

Serge

When I drew the original plan I just used what was in the book.

I didn't change any of the sizes when I modified the original to your plan.

We'd have to discuss your loads to do some actual beam sizing.

There are some standard loads that residential buildings must comply with but I don't know what they are for CA. You'll have to do the research and find them.
Then we could check to see if these size beams would work.
And it all depends on what type of wood you'll be using.

Jim Rogers

Jim,

I am trying to get the snow load, but trying to avoid talking to my town building inspector ( long story) should get this soon from someone else.

The frame is most likely going to be spruce, unless I manage to get my hands on some red oak or pine, but in my area, that is not so likely. Can I make braces out of white birch? How about pegs. Do you have any links to some resources for peg making. Are most people making them or buying them?


Serge

Pegs..... making of.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T-txHEaS...mp;feature=plcp

Thank you,great video! Now I know how to make pegs and got summer plans for my daughter.