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Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: Stuart] #28272 03/10/12 08:39 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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The picture shows a straight edge running from the eye to the cutting edge. I see no problem with how it is set now. Of more interest would be along the cutting edge, top to bottom, how flat or straight is this section? It should contact the straight edge at the center and see light at the ends.

The condition of the axe now is no way useable. If you are only collecting this would be fine. If it is intended to be put back into service it needs to be tuned up. A belt sander, stationary or hand held belt sander works well. A spray bottle and or a 5 gallon bucket of water to quench the head cool to the touch. It will get warm but should be cooled at that point. Use bare hands, no gloves, so you can feel the temp. Don't rush it take your time, a couple of hours of slow work will prove a job well done.

It appears to be a single bevel axe, as such the back should be flatish, within an inch or 2 of the cutting edge(from eye to blade), being careful not to round it over. Work the ends more to create the curvature needed. It would at this time also be possible to apply a radius to the cutting edge, one in which, if the cutting edge was placed against a table it would rock like a rocking chair. This could be slight or more, 1/4"-3/4"

Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: Stuart] #28273 03/10/12 11:43 PM
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Stuart Offline
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While watching tv last night I started flattening the back. This is a bit premature since it will need to be redone once the cutting edge has been reshaped.

Far out is the steel hard. I got a number of hatchets and axes european and japanese and the steel is this axe is way harder than any of them, feels even harder than my chisels. When running my diamond sharpener over it it felt like drill bit steel or electric planet blade steel. The diamonds where cutting the steel but it had that same sort of skating feel that HSS has rather than sifter steels where you can really feel the steel being cut away.

Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: Stuart] #28274 03/11/12 12:12 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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That is where the belt sander comes in to play. You don't want to do this while watching TV, too hard to hear.

Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: Stuart] #28275 03/11/12 01:38 AM
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D Wagstaff Offline
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Hello,

It goes a ways in explaining the chip since the hard, welded steel edge is highly brittle. Also I notice that the low spot of the back seems to correlate to this troublesome chip, lots of speculations possible to be sure. Another clue to the edge profile would be the relation of the angle of the cutting edge to the eye. They don't seem to run parallel to each other, which you could expect of a hewing axe. Difficult to know for sure from my vantage point though. Take care applying mechanical power to the blade, forge welds can separate at temperatures fairly low, even to soon to detect with the bare hand.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: D Wagstaff] #28276 03/11/12 07:21 AM
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Stuart Offline
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The curvature that timbeal was talking about seems to be there but is very slight.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-11175752.jpg

I estimate that it would only be a 1mm or 1.5mm at the most either side.

Is this the angle you mean Don?

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/2012-03-11180741.jpg

As to what abrasives to use I may use a grinder to reshape the cutting edge but to fully flatten the back I'll wait until my new #200 japanese diamond plate arrives.

I found another axe like mine but there seems to be some distinct differences. The angle that I think Don is talking about is quite different and the front edge of the bit is quite curved where as mine is quite straight. The two axes look very similar without there handles, with their handles they would look quite different and obviously behave very differently.

http://i1222.photobucket.com/albums/dd481/Weaverofduart/RbHttpHandler-1.jpg

Last edited by Stuart; 03/11/12 07:22 AM.
Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: Stuart] #28277 03/11/12 10:55 AM
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D Wagstaff Offline
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Hi,

That is not the angle I had in mind though pertinent 'n intresting in itself. No, the relationship I had in mind might better be described by saying that if you were to hold an imaginary handle mounted in this axe in a vertical position, with arms outstretched and the pol of the axe toward you and the cutting edge facing away from you, which direction would the cutting edge be running relative to the verticality of the handle? And to get more to the point, it could be added that, supposing both are indeed parallel for example, this could suggest a certain posture the user might adapt when putting the axe to use as in a straight swing more or less in line with the cut. You could further speculate that this might occur from atop the log itself cutting parallel to its axis. This might lead you to imagine an axe with a relatively long handle, swung like a pendulum. In this instance where the bulk of the cutting is with the growth patterns of the wood rather than across, a straight cutting edge makes sense and the geometry of the axe would be best left as it is now, appropriate reconditioning being accounted for.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by D Wagstaff; 03/11/12 11:08 AM. Reason: also noted
Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: D Wagstaff] #28278 03/11/12 11:38 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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I can not attest to damage from a belt sander. But I would for sure not go near it with a "grinder" If there is a possibility of damage due to the belt sander you are not keeping it cool enough. If this is a concern grab an assistant who can apply a steady spray of water while cleaning the pitted steel. Perhaps Don has a different up bringing than I, hence a different perspective, one worth consideration.

From post #28276
The first photo looks fine to me.

The second photo, the edge looks too straight for my preference.

The third photo is the extreme of the second, and not to my liking either.

I suspect Don's take on how this axe could have been used may be correct. Even so, I suspect the three faces of the cutting edge need not be perfectly straight and flat.

Back to the first photo.... The slight waning you see at the cutting edge is correct. Don't change that. It is the last inch of so I spoke of, this is needed to have the body of the axe clear the surface of the wood, other wise it will be difficult to get the cutting edge against the timber. Very similar to how a drill bit works, the leading edge needs to be able to contact the wood, you don't want the body getting in the way. Still keep in mind that the very edge does not want to be rounded over.

Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: TIMBEAL] #28279 03/11/12 12:59 PM
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Stuart Offline
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When I learnt to recondition chisels the first step was to grind them back square and then to reestablish a bevel. The first step could be done safely and easily with just a modicum of care because the fine edge was being removed. It was in the second that I burnt a lot of chisels. Just when I was finshing the last little but of steel removal would be going just great and then @#%!.

To be completely sure that this didn't happen with my axes I'm I'm the process of making a water cooled grinder. I have the bearing mounts, shaft, pulleys and a selection of stones and motors. The last thing I need is the trough for the water and a drive belt.

This won't help flatten the back though, hence the diamond plate.

Last edited by Stuart; 03/11/12 01:01 PM.
Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: Stuart] #28280 03/11/12 02:32 PM
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D Wagstaff Offline
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Here are a couple of more speculations that would justify the straight edge.
Were the axe a timmermannsbijl then it would not only have been used for hewing but would primarily have functioned as a tool for joinery work being gripped right up there near the eye, but also swung with great accuracy.
On the other hand if it is a sparbilla then its purpose would have been to pare down small diameter spruce stems to be used as rafters.
When I envision it with a very stubby handle, say no more than for a one handed grip, then I imagine it being used by the sabotier or klompenmaker.
I suggest you look further into it before altering the shape.
Also the axe does not seem very thin to me at all but rather bulky and massive, what is it 2 - 2 1/2 kilos?
And my perspective on lapping and grinding comes not from any failed efforts, which I try always to avoid, but is simply a principled one.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by D Wagstaff; 03/11/12 02:42 PM. Reason: refireing
Re: Are old broad axes worth buying or not? [Re: D Wagstaff] #28281 03/11/12 03:30 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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I will probably get in trouble with this perspective.... I don't see the belt driven system as grinding but more of course polishing, very course. It is a slow rpm where grinders, hand held or bench mounted are 1800+ rpms. More heat from the faster wheels. Most tool you purchase today come with beautifully sharpened edges, from power buffing.

I do come very close to finishing some joinery with my ax, gripping the head and pushing right to the line.

I agree with Don, everyone need more axes.

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