I am sure Hundeggers have their place, however I think that they represent an entirely different approach to TF than what I would like to experience. You may be able to produce a lot of beautiful frames with one, but are you cheapening the craft in the process? (And I don't mean reduce the cost ) I don't want to knock high production timber framing, it certainly makes a frame house more available to more people. There is certainly enough room for anybody who can produce an honest frame. I like the idea of being able to walk into the woods with a box of tools and produce an entire frame without electricity or complex equipment.

On the insulation point...

I just used cellulose for the first time (both wet and dry). It was local (from Bernardston, MA), recycled (old newspaper), and has a good R-value. I was told it consists entirely of: cellulose, clay (used in the printing), soy-based ink (they pull all the colored stuff out), boric acid (for bugs and fire), and water. R 3.7/inch. I have a very good installer in western MA, if you're interested Dave.

Brad

Brad.
I am interested in how and where you used the cellulose insulation. I was under the impression that when used in the walls it had a tenancy to settle to the floor. I am in the beginning stages of designing a TF addition to my house and have yet to determine what type on insulation I want to use. I do know I don't want to use any SIP.
Thanks.
Karl Hines

Sorry for not being philosophical on this thread.

But to answer the insulation question...
A lot of homes that have been retrofitted with cellulose (usually blown through holes drilled from outside) do have sagging insulation. That's the installer's fault. It's one of those you get what you pay for things.

Wet (just damp, with water) spray celloluse went into my walls, and it dries in place and sticks. It's very dense and fills all the air spaces. (I have a 2x6 curtain wall outstide the frame by the way.) And it sticks in the walls even after it has dried out.

The wet spray won't stick to roof surfaces, so they staple fabric on the framing, and then I strapped over the fabric. They punch a hole in the fabric and dense pack (the big difference between a good and bad installer) dry cellulose. You can dry spray walls as well under sheetrock, or with fabric and strapping. It really needs to be strapped because the cellulose bulges the fabric out between the bays.

SIPS are great and fast, but they're not my deal (expensive and OSB). Feel free to PM me on any other insulation questions.

Brad

Hi all:

Very interesting topic,

What is wrong with good dry pine shavings, for the attic space, like that sold for animal bedding.

I know of a 200 year old church that had 24 inches of shavings in the attic, and they still appear like new after all these years.

As far as the wall cavity goes in a timber frame this is what I suggest--imagine a cross section view of the wall constructed with 8" timbers--

starting from the outside--

-siding (whatever)
-black roofing paper
-1" groove and tongue boarding -
-3.5" cavity-(thickness of the brace material)
-4" of used old brick laid in soft mortar to just back of the interior surface ofthe timbers, this is a call by the owner\constructor- (the cavity could be smaller)
-fill cavity with shavings as the wall brick is laid
brick can be left in view on the interior,

(I didn't say this was going to be cheap)

We are looking at using mostly recycled products
NH

I think the main problem with the shavings is they are not fire retardant, in fact they are excellent kindling. As mentioned before, the insulation is the crux to a wholly organic home. It does make sense in an older structure though, after the construction of the frame, and all the hand planing and shaving done to sheath it, there would be a mountain of shavings.

My current plan when I build will be to sheath the house in boards, then put rigid insulation on, then put clapboards on the outside. This is still a couple of years away, so I have plenty of time to weigh my options.

Dave

As far as pholosophy goes, I think TF is the way to go. Less structural material, stronger structure, better options. There are also many green options for finish. Look int wool insulation. Naturally fire retardant and at about $1.50 sqft. fairly reasonable. Slate look can be had with recycled rubber shingles. 50 year guarantee and a really good look!. Our time as framers is looming large. Recent increases in energy costs are opening eyes to "different" things. The longing for personalization in homes is growing also. People are growing tired of cookie cutter homes. Let's give them something beautiful and long lasting. Revive the home as a hand me down!

Hello all,

I recently insulated my home with dense pack cellulose, and am pleased with the results. There are many characteristics about the product that I like and most of them landed within the parameters of my building philosophy (which is somewhere between Hundegger and hand-boring mechanism).

It's a recycled, sustainable product, it's vermin and fire retardant (treated with a natural product to resist both enemies) and it's healthy to live in (and much heathier to use than fiberglass).

Part of my personal philosophy with framing and building is material use. I understand (and have constructed) frames enclosed by SIPS, but have issues with structural panels attached to structural posts. With the dense pack walls, I used econo lumber, use 24" spacings, and was able to omit the structural requirements at windows, doors, etc..

My wall cavity, from the inside, is as follows...

-5/8 wall board
-2x4 framing, infilled between timbers, flush to the outside of the frame
-2x3 horizontal strapping, attached to the outside of the timbers and infill framing (allowing for 5" of insulation)
-mesh, installed tautly over the 2x3
-felt paper

Seemed kinda backwards when I built it, because I completed the framing, added the drywall, and then insulated. But, so far, so good.

I think I'm leaning towards ICFs for my next place. You can omit the posts on the perimeter of the building and save some board footage and labor. Also, there is little material redundancy from a structural viewpoint. And it's not F/G batts.

I've had couple pilsners and I think I'm rambling.

Cheers
Brock

Hi all again:

I am still on wall cavities, and materials that were used throughout the years before all these so called wonderful modern insullations hit the news.

The heated area of mills used solid 4by 4's one on top of the other, nailed and plastered into the wall cavities. This 4 inches of wood plus the exterior sheating added up to a good rfactor.
these rooms were very warm indeed, and were healthy to boot!.

Another early school house dating to 1820's used brick filled walls, up against outside 1" boarding, and then beautiful 16" t&g beaded pine boards on the interior walls, nailed to vertical furring strips. the walls were 8" thick, and the window and door frames were set in place as the walls were laid, talk about a beautiful thought out plan. the building was a timberframe structure.

Another shop that I helped restore used strips of cedar split from rail fences, held in place with wood pegs and plastered in the wall cavities, on the inside the walls were vertical furred, and plastered on top of horizontal wood lath, this also was a very warm building and seemed easy to heat in cold weather.

My own philosophy is to learn as much as possible about the tried and proved methods, and incorporated as many of these techniques into a modern home.

I realize that stone and brick will transmit cold from an exterior wall, but if you look closely at the walls the old people constructed their methods included a centre cavity to break this transmission, with a few bonding bricks or stone, to tie the two walls together.

Food for thought

It is hard to fight the modern march of progress

NH

I have read that some of the early plank-on-frame houses were more plank than frame, and that the planks were sometimes more than 3" thick. Wood will take on heat during the day, and when room temps drop at night it will re-radiate the heat.