I've been offered a bunch of Monterey Cypress logs that are about a year or two old. The have dried out enough that the bark has Started to fall off them.
If they were fresh then they would certainly be easier to work but would they be too far gone for hewing? They certainly are not for milling but that is a different ball game.
Which is quite funny. I know the USA is a big country and that Maine is a long way from California but I thought that an american site would have stacks of people familiar with this species.
Apparently in its native range it is not an impressive timber species.
Just wanting to know a bit more about exactly what it is you have, a name is good but doesn't really give much information for a response. And what do you mean
Quote:
not for milling
, that sort of thing.
It's come up here a bit recently, by which I mean this confusion. The Douglas Fir that grows here in Central Europe may be called Douglas Fir but there the similarities between it and the North American counterpart end. Douglas Fir of Europe will have much more widely spaced growth rings and be full of big knots compared to the North American version. Last year I hewed down some Western Red Cedar - not so far removed from your Cypress - which had been cut out there in Germany. This wood bears no resemblance to Western Red Cedar imported from its native growth range apart from a similar smell when cut into.
In general Cypress can be a real good wood to work with hand tools though like a lot of these soft woods, brittle and splintery. Being 2 years cut means you will probably get a lot more crushed fibers as you hew across grain than had it been fresh wood. But unless the stems are real bent or knot ridden it could be good wood and come out looking something like this Because it would be even more critical to maintain truly sharp edges, being less than green, this will increase the work for you. Make use of Richard Cassleman's technique there at the bottom edge to prevent splitting that corner out.
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
Last edited by D Wagstaff; 04/21/1208:25 AM. Reason: engineered
What I meant by "not for milling" was that if I was milling these logs then it doesn't matter that they have been down for two years. I probably would have milled them about 18 months, 6 months ago or now. Ie not in summer. There is sum barrel checking so if I was milling there would be more sub grade boards if milled now rather than 6 months agom or longer ago.
I agree these logs would come up very like the photo and if it is just a matter of more sharpening well I've got to get better at that anyway.
I'll have to do a search for Richard Cassleman's technique.
I sent up that photo of the Western Red Cedar in this topic about with Cypress because this stem, having been harvested somewhere in Germany, reminded me more of the Cypress wood that I have worked than imported Red Cedar. This German wood was denser and harder, two related though separate qualities, and much lighter in color being more yellow than red.
This density was pretty important in how the wood reacted to being cut with the axe in particular. The sap wood being less dense was trouble and cutting it tangentially or across the grain was difficult, though in the end that didn't matter because it was all remove. The heart wood cut for the most part well though down near the bottom which was buttressed excessively to one side indicating it had grown on a hillside, was very tough and resilient especially right out at the end where the fibers were unsupported and seemed to flex with the blade. I had to think of the forces of wind and gravity that had formed that wood and the effect that was now having in resisting my axe swings and even more so when shortly after squaring up it bowed over the whole 9 meter length with a deflection of about 10 cm. More important though when making the comparison to this wood and its North American counterpart is the differences in climate.
I guess another consideration to make about the choice of the wood, that is beyond how it will work, is for what it will be applied. I cut a rain gutter with this stem so was looking more for a wood that would be somewhat durable in wet conditions. Because this is a matter of chemicals I'm guessing growing conditions wont really effect DNA so much. The tinsel and compressive qualities of the wood could also be considered and what the difference between native and exotic trees would yield there. On the face of it the sheer quantity and quality of the knotty native grown Cedar probably would give an indication.
Cypress though. A wood used more by native North Americans and Japanese in building. I don't think that it is acceptable in Japanese woodworking to work across the grain, though its only speculation on my part.
Hello, I guess another consideration to make about the choice of the wood, that is beyond how it will work, is for what it will be applied. I cut a rain gutter with this stem so was looking more for a wood that would be somewhat durable in wet conditions. Because this is a matter of chemicals I'm guessing growing conditions wont really effect DNA so much. The tinsel and compressive qualities of the wood could also be considered and what the difference between native and exotic trees would yield there. On the face of it the sheer quantity and quality of the knotty native grown Cedar probably would give an indication.
Actually it could make a big difference. I've got quite a bit of experience with Australian grown Californian Redwood. A lot of it does not seem to have the same level of rot resistance and insect resistance that the american grown wood has. Mind you this could be because the wood is from relatively young trees (~70 years).
As you have mentioned the growing conditions of the tree would really effect way the finished timber would behave. From my experience with milling timber I would not try and mill a log as you have described into straight timber. The reaction wood that the tree has laid down to support itself against the external forces of wind or gravity seriously effect how the timber is going to react once the tension in the log is relieved by being worked. 10cm over 9m may seem like a lot but in Australian hardwoods you can get much greater reactions even in straight timber with balanced growth around the heart.
Thats one of the reasons I want to start with exotic species like Monterey cypress because from all I've heard and seen it is easier to work with than some of the other timber available to me. Also I can get a fair bit of it.
The other species that is relatively available is Pinus Radiata but many of the logs I can get come from windrows and while they may be straight they are full of knots.
Today though I'm going to pick up a douglass fir log which I've been tolled is 500mm diameter. Its from a tree that died standing so I'm not sure what condition it is in.
I was surprised that it was cutting the notches that was the most work. I can see why people use chainsaws. Obviously I've got a lot to learn but for a first attempt its ok. There are a few spots where I notched a bit too enthusiastically which is a result of so many utube videos saying that people don't notch deep enough. Even though I was careful my axes hit the ground way too much.
I also found it hard to secure the log. The dog I'm using is actually a boot scraper but it has two pointy ends and is about the right length. The other dog is just a piece of wood with two tech screws. The log tended to move in the direction of my axe blows so I tried angling the dogs to counter this but it didn't seem to work. It was ok when I stood on the log but the handles on my axes are a bit short for that and it was much more comfortable when I was standing on the ground with the log on 4" bearers.
As always when using a new set of tools I have blisters in all sorts of surprising places. The most painful of which is on the BACK of my right thumb.
I don't secure my logs at all. I find it a wasted effort.
Instead, I have two large logs on the ground with saddle-notches cut into them, kind of like you would use for a round log cabin. I then roll the log to be hewn into these notches, and it will set there securely if it has any size.
My procedure is then to hew down one side, and flip that side to the bottom and move it around until this face sits level (or rather, square to plumb). The flat surface will be sturdy, even more so if it is made to straddle the notches giving it 4 points of contact instead of 2.
Where are you located? If you would be willing to come out here to Indiana, I could help you out. Or I could send you some info on the use of these tools. There are a lot of particulars that are hard to figure out on your own.
I'd love to come to Indiana but it would be a long swim. I'm in Australia so I won't be visiting any time soon.
I'd really appreciate any information that you could send my way. I've just ordered Roy Underhill series of books and I've got one other that I can't find just at the second that talk about hewing but has really bad pictures.
Other than that I've googled lots.
The cypress that log that I've already done moved around a lot. So I think it needs something to hold hit in place. What might be needed for the light stuff is something toothed to go on the bearer like you have on sawmill beds.
Even better and more pointed to your interest would be what forum colleague Richard Cassleman has offered previously here for sale - I thought it was in DVD form which might be a problem for you though being in Australia because of a different formatting platform used on some DVDs and players there - does it sound like I think I know what I'm writing about? No, I just mean that I've had problems in the past with Australian CDs or DVDs or whatever they are so checking into that before hand is maybe warranted.
I have a different idea than Dave does about the usefulness of log dogs but maybe where we agree is that were you to use more substantial bearers in any case your work piece would be better supported and less likely to move around so much. Squirrely logs jumping around and rolling under definitely cut into the enjoyment, not to mention the progression, of the work.
Greetings,
Don Wagstaff
Last edited by D Wagstaff; 04/29/1211:30 AM. Reason: reestablishment
Even better and more pointed to your interest would be what forum colleague Richard Cassleman has offered previously here for sale - I thought it was in DVD form which might be a problem for you though being in Australia
I'm happy to consider purchasing DVDs or books. I am a great believe in paying for good information. If more of us were to do so that would make it more viable for skilled people to pass on their knowledge which would allow them to charge less and further develop their skills and knowledge giving us better quality information.
Unfortunately on topics on which I am well versed/skilled I know there are a lot of people out there charging for rubbish. It is one of the reasons I appreciate forums so much. You start to get enough information that you can begin to make reasonable decisions about what resources to purchase while at the same time getting referred to good resources.
Not to dissuade people from purchasing information, there is plenty of useful info, here in forum form, and via U-tube and the like. Plenty of ideas on different techniques. So, continue with your system, change it up and find first hand what works for you. The biggest thing you can do now is practice, imprint the use of the axe into your neurological system. Even if the practice you develop is off in some manner once imprinted it is easy to correct. You will see the next time you pick up the axe it will be easier each time and blisters heal at about the same rate.
I have been learning to swim via forums and u-tube. 45+ years old and could never swim, I just swam my fist 200 IM!
I know from some of my other endeavors that you can spend a lot of time learning bad habits and then have to spend more time unlearning them.
Much of the info on utube looks like it belongs on someones personal blog rather than broadcast to the world. I've seen a few vids where they were touting themselves as experts but from my limited knowledge they didn't seem to know what they were talking about. In one vid the person doing the hewing and conducting the workshop said that he had not sharpened his axe since he got it and that it did not need to be sharp since he was cutting with the grain. Now I'm rather new at this but I doubt that could be true.
Stuart, I can send you some information. Richard's (the Northern Hewer) stuff is very good but keep in mind, he is using American methods and American tools. Your methods must be matched to your tools to yield good results.
For example, when juggling with an american axe, I do it American style, standing atop the log and splitting from the ends. If using a German Bundaxt, I find it works best to do it German style, standing beside the log and splitting down through the juggle. It is very important that you use your tools as they are designed.
Additionally, a goosewing should not be used with the same technique as a Pennsylvania pattern broad axe. Yes you can do so, but you will not get the best results that you could be.
If you have no skill in hewing any hewing you do will advance you in the right direction. As with any thing, you have to use your own discretion and judgement. You may only pick up one small bit of info from some errant video but add it to your library, don't through out all due to some bad part. Part of the fun in learning a new skill, is finding all the pieces and putting them together.
Don, regarding the use of dogs I have found there is no universal answer.
For example, the logs I am hewing right now are all substantial -white pines yielding 10,11,12, and even 13 or 14 inch wide faces at 8 1/2 inch width. So these logs would require enormous dogs to be held in place. But their weight will not be overcome by a striking axe, if firmly seated in notches on substantial bearing logs.
For smaller logs, it becomes necessary to secure them somehow as notches alone might not be enough to hold them in place.
Personally, I don't like driving spikes into my neatly hewn surfaces, especially where they will be exposed to the exterior like on my current project. So I avoid it whenever possible. I also am not fond of the fact that dogs allow you to hew only one face at a time, which is a disadvantage in our style of working, where parallel faces are worked at the same time when 2 or more people are present.
It is a bit hard to tell fro the photos but there was about the same amount of wood removed from each notch. They do go Straight down but don't look like it because I leaned over the log to take the photos
In all seriousness I don't think he is building neurological pathways at all I think he is reinforcing neurological pathways long unused. When you pick up an axe to do work it is a connection to one of the strands that is at the very core of what it is to be human. Right, the axe, one of he first tools used by humans.
Forget it? All of the right actions are known, they reside in the unconsciousness carried from person to person down the generations by the DNA selected to be preserved as essential in maintaining connection and continuity to the human condition. So I say, "Away with saws and remember how to use wood."
Here's some of our work of late. This stuff is all easy going, and right now we are runnin at about 3 logs per day. Then all of these will get sawn in half along their length...
We've been working hard at hewing our pine logs, and have fiddled around a lot with our methods. Currently, here's how I do:
Notch with the German Bundaxt, then use same to split of the juggles, being as accurate as I can at this step and trimming the face down to about 1/4 from the line.
Then, I just go right at it with the Breitbeil (goosewing) I find it is much faster to forgoe the Plankaxt (the llong handled broad axe) altogether when going for a very clean finish like we are doing here.
However, if we were hewing smaller faces (today we hewed 2 12 1/2 inch faces) then I would make much more use of the Plankaxt.
The notching technique is interesting. Would be easier to make accurate notches but seems to take longer.
Interesting technique with the Breitbeil maybe he is left handed and could not get the hang of using it as it was meant?
Where did the name Goosewing come from? I had thought that it came from a medieval style that resembled a birds wing and the name persisted as the axe head shape changed over time. However, I also thought that this style of axe is from the German, Austrian, Hungarian and surrounding countries. If that is the case why are they called Breitbeil, Breitaxt or Breithacke or in other words Broadaxes?
When Americans talk about pine they describe it as southern pine, western pine, northern pine, yellow pine, white pine etc.
Species names don't seem to be mentioned at all. Can anyone tell me what group/name Monterey Pine or Pinus radiata fits into. Ocaisionally I can get scots (baltic, red, riga) pine, Pinus sylvestris, but generally they are too large for hewing and I would get better value from milling them.
Someone else would have to clarify better, as pine isn't what I know the best. But as far as my experience goes, in the eastern half of the US our pine tends to be divided into 2 categories, white and yellow. Our white is generally Eastern White Pine, or Pinus strobus, the yellow pines include a mixture of pines, such as Longleaf Pine or Pinus palustris, shortleaf pine or Pinus echinata, slash pine or Pinus elliottii, and Loblolly Pine or Pinus taeda.
That said, there are a LOT more varieties of pine to be had, and that's why they are so often classed into broader categories -it's too confusing for that average person to keep track of.
As for the Goosewing, The classic goosewing axe has a shape somewhat reminiscent of a gosse's wing, hence the English name. You may have to use a little imagination, but I suspect the Americans found it easier to say goosewing than Breitbeil.
I use a left-handed axe. The term really does not have anything to do with which hand you use, but rather to which side of the log you stand.
The notching technique is in fact faster, keep in mind these two are hewing a very large oak log here, with very big notches, and which from the sound of their axes I's guess to be extremely hard.
The disadvantage of this system is that you need 2 people to do it! Also to work the best, the log has to be pretty high up -dictating that about all of the work is done standing beside, rather than on top.
The notching technique is in fact faster, keep in mind these two are hewing a very large oak log here, with very big notches, and which from the sound of their axes I's guess to be extremely hard.
Oh thats funny. I watched that video and I thought gees that wood must be soft. Here is Australia we have some of the hardest woods in the world. Just down the road from me (30mins) are Yellow Box (Eucalyptus melliodora), Red Box (E. polyanthemos) Red Iron bark (E. sideroxylon) among others that have a air dried density of between 1100kg/m3(Yellow Box) to 1250kg/m3 (Grey Box/Red Iron bark). The exotic pine and cypress I can get is around 500kg/m3. Natives that I can get occasionally locally are messmate, E. obliqua (white oak equivilent?) 750kg/m3, Manna Gum, E. viminalis 650-700kg/m3 (red oak equivilent) and Blackwood and Lightwood, Acacia melanoxylon and A. implexa which my book says are around 650kg/m3 but I'm sure the stuff we have locally is much heavier/harder.
The notching did look quick but there were two of them. Is this method more than twice as fast as one person working from the top of the log?
P. radiata is the most commonly cultivated tree in the world but in its native range it is endangered.
The classic medieval (15th, 16th century) goosewing does actually look like a wing but most of the american colonial exmaples have so far changed that you really have to squint to see the resemblance if at all.
Funny how things work out. I've just read in "The woodrights companion" by Roy Underhill that the term Goosewing axe was first coined by Henry Mercer is his book "Ancient Carpenters tools" published in 1929. Apparently another name for these axes was die Barte or bearded axe.
Here is Australia we have some of the hardest woods in the world. Just down the road from me (30mins) are Yellow Box (Eucalyptus melliodora), Red Box (E. polyanthemos) Red Iron bark (E. sideroxylon) among others that have a air dried density of between 1100kg/m3(Yellow Box) to 1250kg/m3 (Grey Box/Red Iron bark). The exotic pine and cypress I can get is around 500kg/m3. Natives that I can get occasionally locally are messmate, E. obliqua (white oak equivilent?) 750kg/m3, Manna Gum, E. viminalis 650-700kg/m3 (red oak equivilent) and Blackwood and Lightwood, Acacia melanoxylon and A. implexa which my book says are around 650kg/m3 but I'm sure the stuff we have locally is much heavier/harder.
When I lived out there in Albany, and had to stoke the water heater every morning I use to collect a car load of roots because cutting and splitting that hard wood was to much work and I didn't have tools to do it anyway. Man, what are you doing timber framing in Australia? The termites are going to eat it all up.
Termites in my area are not too bad and one of the reasons that I'm keen to use the monterey cypress is that the termites leave it alone even if its damp. Many other woods are ok as long as you keep them dry.
You are likely to have more problems with council planning and building approval than with termites.
I split each log in half and took a 3" inch slab off each half of the 12" log while they were in place. They were still far too heavy to get out by myself. After moving them across a creek I gave up my solo effort after falling backwards into a patch of stinging nettles. The next day I got a friend to help me get them up the bank of the creek and onto the ute to get them home.
The dunnage that they are resting on was from another smaller tree (about 7") that fell over at the same time. Blackwood is a beautiful wood with some incredible colour and figure. Blackwood can come with a lot of fiddle back but fortunately this tree had pretty straight grain.
After reading about hickory handles being made from the sap wood rather than the heart I think some of these logs will get cut and split into handle blanks. The rest will be a shaving horse and chairs.
Stuart, Today we were in Berne, Indiana and visited the museum where the giant cider press is held.
Word's cannot describe the size of this thing, and I cannot in my mind fathom how they handled it in 1864.
But on the topic of raising and lowering, we also visited their cheese house nad observed the press, also a beam press. It had an ingenious mechanism. There is a round log section with both ends pivoting to which a chain is attached that is also fastened to the end of the pressing beam. To this cylinder is attached a long arm, on the end of which is a rope with handle. When you pull down on the rope, the cylinder rotates, drawing up the chain and in turn the press beam. in this way, very little effort is needed to move the 1500 pound white oak beam.
How do you asses whether a species of tree is good to use or not?
For you Americans you probably don't have to because all your woods have already been assessed as to what is good and what is not for a particular job.
The reason I ask is because there are a number of trees in my area that are generally excepted to be good for fire wood and not much else.
Two cases in point are Peppermint (actually two species but they are similar) and mana gum. They have rather high tangential and radial shrinkage (P 6%r,11%t, Mana 6%r,12%t) and hence are a night mare to mill without significant degrade but could they be used in timber framing?
I was thinking that anything with a tenon might be a bad idea unless the members were quite small but posts might be all right? Or purlins or common rafters that are just pegged to principal rafters? Or battens that are pegged to common rafters?
Or what about pegs themselves? If they were kept inside so that they were extra dry then they would swell after they had been hammered into the frame? Would you have to be careful in that they could swell too much and split the wood they passed through?
Other than shrinkage rates what other information would you look for to asses a species suitability for a particular framing member. Details that I have already are density, modulous of rupture, modulus of elasticity and maximum crushing stregnth.
From those properties can you determine figures for vertical shear, horizontal shear, Fb and such?
It is very important when researching wood properties that you try to find the relationship between ultimate values and acceptable and approved design values.
The US Forest Products Lab publishes data on wood properties of species used in domestic and international commerce. Australia must have an agency that mirrors the USFPL.
You guys in America seem to struggle to find exceptable design values that you can really rely on except for the widely used timbers. The "Timber frame Joinery and design workbook" is has many places where it states that people just don't know.
I guess what I was asking was for a methodology of determining useful design criteria. It would have to be conservative but could it be done?
Lots of good stuff there but I was really surprised that Pinus radiata does not seem to be listed. P. radiata is the most commonly propergated forestry tree in the world yet in the country where it comes from it doesn't rate a mention.
Not really so odd, pinus radiata natively exists in niches only in three groves in the US and is considered endangered. The plantation pinus radiata differs in growth and genetic characteristics from the native strain and would be considered invasive in the native stands. Furthermore all varieties would not likely be winter hardy in the northern and central tiers of states and Canada.
You guys in America seem to struggle to find exceptable design values that you can really rely on except for the widely used timbers. The "Timber frame Joinery and design workbook" is has many places where it states that people just don't know.
I guess what I was asking was for a methodology of determining useful design criteria. It would have to be conservative but could it be done?
Small success. Modulus of rupture is six to times the fb rating. So to be safe fb=R/10.
Just need to find similar rules of thumb for Vertical and Horizontal shear.
rock & roll 
