Hello I am a new member and appreciate this forum. I tried searching for picnic shelter but couldn't find any topics. In the advanced search I put in Newer than 1 year, but nothing came up.

Anyways. I know how to do traditional stick build, and I want to make a picnic shelter in my back yard. A very big one 24x50 or so. I went to a local lumber mill carter lumber and while I could buy a pole barn type kit, the look of dozens of 24' trusses just looks ugly.

I guess my first question is where do I get those huge steel plates I see in public picnic shelters?
I know some think they are ugly, but I do not mind how they look. I saw this product http://www.timberlinx.com/article.php
has anyone used it? How does it compare cost wise to the steel plates? thanks!

By the time you pay for and cut and drill for the steel plates you can do a large portion of the joinery with traditional mortise and tenon, supplemented with tension steel as needed.

Simpson strong tie has some off the shelf steel plates.


You can also buy the 14 Frames book in the TFG store. There are several shelters.

And head to Kentucky for the TFG raising for the Frankfort Paviliion. I think it is 24x40.

I looked all over the strong ties web site under truss plates and couldn't find any. Do you have a link or model # or at least category you can suggest.

I do not want to fabricate the metal plates I simply want to buy them premade. Is there not a company that premakes them? They are all custom made?

Thanks for the tip on the book I'll probably order it.

http://www.strongtie.com/products/apg/index.html

http://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/custom_APG.asp

You have to look on their architectural products.
Special order and a few off the shelf.

But yes, most are custom. Different truss configurations, loads, materials, etc.

Cool that is exactly what I was looking for off the shelf components
Do these come in pairs when you buy them with bolts? or is everything piece by piece.
http://www.amazon.com/Simpson-Strong-Tie-Ornamental-Strap/dp/B001I3GEKS/ref=pd_cp_hi_1

$18 per "L" bracket x 2 plus $5 for bolts, and that is $40 per connection? AT that price I might just learn how to do it the traditional way! I'm cheap! But do realize that I might not save much considering I'd have to buy all the tools and increased labor.

I bought a couple of books per your suggestion. I might do traditional mortise.

Seems like searching the forum power tools vs hand tools is a topic of debate.

I just want to make this one picnic shelter, Can I just use a regular drill to make the mortise? (and chisel it out after wards) What is the advantage of an expensive right angle hole hawg. It looks like a much stronger torque motor, but I'm going to be using 6x6 treated pine which is pretty easy to drill.

Thanks for any thoughts.

Before you decide on timber size and connection you need to design the overall structure. 6x6 will likely be too small for mortise and tenon, and likely too small for developing tension joinery. Maybe for steel plates.

You can use a drill and chisels. I wouldn't go right angle, I'd pick up one of the Milwaukee drills. I've used and older model of this:

http://www.milwaukeetool.com/tools/drill...-350-rpm/1854-1

You should really get an engineer or designer involved. A picnic shelter is an expensive way to build a kite.

I'm finishing the last timbers for the bulk of my frame, all of which have been cut with drill + chisel. I won't say that it's fast, but it's certainly doable and better than having to sell on specific tools that you may never need again.

I would strongly recommend reading all the material that you can get your hands on cover to cover before you finalise your design.

thanks for the replies I'll be reading the books I bought soon enough.

Has anyone used this company before

http://www.americanpoleandtimber.com/prod-structural-timber-trusses.shtml

or this one?

http://www.sandcreekpostandbeamoftx.com/moreinformation.htm

It might save me a lot of work and make my building dept happy since they can engineer stamp their designs.

I'm not sure how picky my local building dept will be. I did use "home made 2x6" trusses on a project once actually it was a lean too and they let me get away with it. However with a free standing unit they might balk and require engineered drawings.

There are two reasons I want to do it my self.
1. I like learning new things.
2. I think I will save money.

Perhaps the second reason is incorrect. I've only found ONE company that will do timber framing in my area (searched google) and they seem too busy to even quote an approximate cost. I do have about 6 guys total to help me and I can rent what ever is needed to raise the building.

Where are you located?

property is in York, SC. near charlotte, NC

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...320&bih=356


http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&c...hMxUE&mvs=0


Lots of timber framers to choose from. Including some TFG members.

YES, but most are several hours away. I've gotten one price quote around $25,000 from someone coming 5 hours away. I think I can do it myself and save a lot of $$$. Maybe I'm wrong. I need to do more homework.

right now my idea is to pour a concrete pad, use strong tie 6x6 concrete embedded posts and build the side walls myself and order the trusses from the company i linked to above.

of course most of my ideas are revised many many times LOL.

Is this a private or commercial project???

If it's for a non profit, the TFG is always looking for community-service building projects.

nope not a non profit. thanks anyways.

timber frame often isn't 'cheap', especially when dealing with craftsmen and women.

it can be a cost effective way to cover a given area, when designed properly, and designed to play to its strengths.

there seems to be less sharing of timber built designs on the internet. I can google up standard 2x designs no problem. I haven't found a single timber frame design on the internet.

That's the first hurdle.
Even if one can find plans, the materials are all special order or custom made on site. The bigger timber locally is 6x6 or perhaps telephone poles.

I think I'm going to order that tiber framing book for the rest of us book. Author seems to think like me.

I do not mind paying more for a quality product, but so far the only quote I got for timber trusses is $13,600 for 4 trusses spanning 30 feet plus $1400 for delivery. I can get Two By trusses for $2500 locally.

Cost difference is 6x. I'm not sure it is worth 6x the cost.

If it sounds Like I am thinking out loud I am. The amount of info on timber framing is scarce so it is nice to find this forum. Maybe my hopes of making one are unrealilistic.

Part of the reason for less sharing of designs, is that properly designed timber frames are less easy to modify and adapt than stick frames. If your stud spacing is 400mm O/C then extending a wall is as simply as adding more studs following that pattern. A large opening in a timber frame may be engineered for a specific species and loading. Increasing the span, or changing the timber could take you past the specified loading and risk a collapse of the structure.

Secondly, it's a more specialised skill. The standard tables that can be used for stud and joist spacing don't apply which means that each structure has to be engineered. The maths isn't overly complex, but does go a little beyond simply reading values from a table.

Finally there's a smaller number of designers out there. When researching construction methods for our house I found hundreds of stick frame designs, but it's worth noting that few of the authors of these designs had actually built them, or any other frames.

Timber Framing for the Rest of Us is a good book, but won't get you the ability to use smaller timber. It just replaces the traditional pegged mortise and tenon joints with simple bolted lap joints. You'll still need large timbers to span large areas. Alternatively you could look at a Colombage (French) style construction which makes extensive use of smaller timbers. This may however not fit the aesthestic that you seek and this will be the final problem. If you're just trying to save money, look at stick framing (or roundwood framing, search for Ben Law). If you want that look of open plan spaces bounded by large timbers, then you have no choice.

http://www.grandoakstimberframing.com/timber_frame_store.html

found this place that sells plans might get a set after I do some more reading.

rolland, there are quite a few independent designers out there (me included) and a few others on this forum.

the timber framers guild is a wonderful resource as well.

and jon noted quite a few of the issues with timber frame design in general. lots of options, lots of variables, and when you get into open pavilions, you complicate matters with uplift and wind loading, more so that with the basics of roof load and sizing.

your pricing sample doesn't really tell the whole story. stick trusses will blow over just as easily or more so than timber trusses. you haven't really addressed how these will be attached to the ground - sitting on posts / piers? sitting on walls? what holds the walls together? are they sheathed with plywood and siding? with windows and doors?

you can find local mills. try looking on the forestry forum, or contacting a member here named jim rogers. lots of sources for larger than 6x materials. length might be a limiting factor too.

in the end, you need to decide what is more important - money and time, balanced on the use and look of the structure. what is important, and where do you want to spend your money and time....?

I was talking to a designer this morning and he suggested 3 timber frame trusses with rafters inbetween creating a 24x30' pavillion. That would give me the nice vaulted ceiling look I want and probably be more economical.

You're right I did not address what the walls would cost, my example was just comparing trusses, not the whole structure.

The problem with figuring out how much money or time I want to spend, is there is NO easy way to figgure out how much it would cost me to do myself. After a few days of poking around the internet I found two places 2 hrs away that would sell me timber only and it will probably be a few more days before I get pricing.
Carter Lumber quoted me about $85 each for 8"x8"x10' lumber.

When I first started this project I naievly thought I could download a sample plan, callup a lumber store and get a ball park idea of what it could cost me in materials in a day or two. Afterall I have seen this type of structure at every state park I have visited for my entire life. It is such a common structure, however just because it is common doesn't mean it's easy to make!

Currently I am waiting for my book to arrive to get the sample 14 plans.

Perhaps I should start a new thread of where to buy lumber that seems to be the biggest hurdle for me.

also found this place with designs/plans for sale online But at $575 I was hoping to spend less
http://www.timberframe-houseplans.com/shop-prints/Cooper-Shop-Prints.shtml

Thats a deal.

I charge $250-$500-$800 for a schematic model (depending on size, complexity, etc) - I include enough info to get some quotes on, including a prelim timber list, all 3d in SketchUp. Output delivered is 2d JPG images or PDFs.

I do some preliminary sizing and some consideration for location, snow, wind, etc. so we can get in the ball park. Final engineering would come under a full build package.

A full build package can then run anywhere from another $1000 to $4500 (and more) depending on what you need - PE stamp on the design for permit, stick drawings, joinery details for every piece, foundation and footer / pier design / etc.

In the end, unless you have experience doing this, or local resources, you do get what you pay for.

Lots of friendly folks in the TFG that are willing to help, up to a point.

I wonder if those plans are adjusted for your area / codes / engineering requirements if needed? A lot of online plan services all state that you need to have a local professional review the plans - especially engineering....

Yes it is a good deal. I know it takes a lot of time to make drawings, but considering that I originally thought something this commmon and simple could be downloaded for free..... it is more than I hoped to spend.

My local buildings and codes dept have put up with my crappy hand drawings for solar energy systems, 16x40 sheds, 1000 sq foot additiions, etc. I'm guessing they will not require me to get PE stamped drawings. Thought they did require me to get a overkill grading survey done stamped and everything just to clear 1 acre of land.

Here is a 3d model to one of the plans in the 14 frames book:

http://sketchup.google.com/3dwarehouse/details?mid=61e0f99f90ba04d3ca7d9a9cd1666d04&prevstart=0

The author of this model used it as an example for teaching how to use SketchUp to design timber frames.

When you get your book you will have a better idea about the size and scope of this pavilion.

thank you. this will be fun to play with.

there are more timber frame examples on the warehouse. just poke around a bit.

note that i wouldn't build any of them without contacting their owner's first. same thing goes for the 14 frames book.

Rolland the Thompson Gunner,

Sorry you have a great name that reminds me of Zevon.

My two cents:

It sounds like you are trying to span 30' at a gable and then have two bays at 12'. Without getting into the structural of 6 X 6 not being big enough for the task I would suggest just a couple of design ideas.

1. If you build a pavilion with a form of a gable that is 30 feet wide and 20' long it will be a small window when your shelter is actually shaded underneath regardless of orientation. It would not be fun to have the sun shining on you in a shelter most of the day.

2. Be aware that a slab of concrete can be overwhelming for some tastes. Please look into crush and run for your flooring as a possibility. It has much more character and is not nearly as "sterile and cold". You would just most likely need some banding to hold in the smaller aggregates once you get to finish level.

And don't forget, "That when you pay for quality you only cry once"

Cheers.