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Side-Beveled Chisels #29486 07/27/12 07:32 PM
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Caleb Offline OP
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A couple makers give the options for side-bevels on there framing chisels. Does anyone have an opinion on this?

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: Caleb] #29488 07/28/12 07:09 PM
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D Wagstaff Offline
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Hello,

Opinion? You want opinion? Well as long as you ask I'm willing to oblige in this case but first the facts which are that in woodworking there are three core categories of chisel, mortice, firmer and bench or these beveled ones you bring up. The mortice chisels seem self explanatory, firmer chisels maybe less so, are the same as bench chisels without the beveled sides so are stouter and can withstand more force in use but because of the extra bulk can be unhandy when cutting some jointery say dovetails for example. Firmer chisels are actually pretty obsolete because a lot of their function has been replaced by people using a router in place of chopping wood out with a chisel. But in timber work still dominant because the extra mass needed where it counts when used by the traditionalist.

But bench chisels are primarily just that, to be used at the bench which doesn't seem to be where much timber framing takes place though it fits into something I have seen as a trend/confusion in Anglo-American timber framing where more and more tools are being adopted from furniture making and cabinetry, shoulder planes, rabbit planes, block planes - bench chisels. To me it indicates a certain mind shift or alteration of the consciousness of the timber framer responding to various undefined - in my mind at least - social and cultural influences. Probably customer demand or glossy magazine editors.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: Caleb] #29489 07/29/12 12:28 AM
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Caleb Offline OP
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Just to stoke the fire a bit, can one assume that the framing chisels really excel as a "paring" tool? With this be said, wouldn't some side bevel only aid in this task (allowing the chisel easier access up into the corners)? I can still see how stoutness is a virtue in a framing chisel, but with the aid of an auger, the chisel is not necessary for much heavy chopping? And please remember that I am what the forum refers to as an associate, meaning that my experience is slim and my ideas dim. Be kind. Thanks

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: D Wagstaff] #29490 07/29/12 12:51 AM
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Roger W Nair Offline
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I differ from Don in a few regards, chisels can be classed by the manner in which handles are attached ie tang and socket. For heavy mallet work in sometimes difficult wood, the heavy body socket chisel is the prefered chisel. Whether the side is beveled, the top relieved or flat top with straight sides, the right chisel is the carpenters choice developed through use. Wide variety existed from late 19th and early 20th century manufacturing concerns. Example 1905 White catalogue

http://toolemera.com/catpdf/lijwhite1905Cat.pdf

I would also add to Don's list of chisel types paring chisels and slicks. I have found that a 1 1/2" framing chisel with a long handle and sweep in the blade, so the socket offsets, very handy for many paring tasks.

For the people who work with tall horses firmer chisels make good ergonomic sense until working depth limits are reached.

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: Caleb] #29491 07/29/12 01:08 AM
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I don't even use my 2" chisel any more. I use my 1-1/2" on 1.5 and 2" mortices, and only on the ends and after the 3/4" corner chisel. Every thing else is done with a slick and it has nice slender sides to it. Lousy knots are an exception. If you were hand boring one hole in a mortice and chiseling to the hole then a good thick stout chisel would be desirable, I suspect. On tenon work I don't even pick up a chisel, it is all axe and slick, no mallet and chisel chunking. And I don't mess with hand planes on tenon work either.

So my opinion would be to get a 1-1/2" beveled edged chisel for the purpose you mentioned, it can get into tight corners when cleaning up the ends of the mortice.

Hand planes.... I love my scrub plane, it serves as a thickness planer for when thing are too fat.

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: TIMBEAL] #29492 07/29/12 10:28 AM
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Hello,

It's not uncommon to see handles on tang mounted chisels split out from heavy whacking with a mallet or from prying down. What is the advantage? Economy of manufacture. Up till now I sometimes wince when prying with that 36 mm chisel that was made out there in Idaho deep in a mortice, so far I've been lucky. A fine chisel for pairing, but could it be justified a sturdier, or firmer, chisel for chopping out the mortice is required. And in terms of chopping out mortices it is maybe worth mentioning that the morticing chisel, with its edges at right angle to the bottom and the top tapering up toward the grip, that these edges serve a significant guidance function - up and down, front to back.
Yeah, a paring chisel and a slick seems redundant and it could be pointed out that among timber framing traditions those making widespread use of the slick are in the minority, (the traditions, not the individual carpenters I mean). And really, with the limited number of typical joints used in standard timber framing, a chisel with beveled edges seems excessive as they only serve where the angles of the joint are acute. But in such cases they are irreplaceable.
Quote:
Whether the side is beveled, the top relieved or flat top with straight sides, the right chisel is the carpenters choice developed through use.
To me a troubling statement that suggests there is no standard for the right use of chisel and that the functional elements are pure whimsey and only exist to provide individual carpenters with more choice, as opposed to using the right chisel for its intended purpose.

Scrub planes are greatly underrated and under appreciated in all kinds of woodworking, and there is no sense in keeping it secret. scrubbing

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by D Wagstaff; 07/29/12 10:34 AM.
Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: D Wagstaff] #29493 07/30/12 01:53 PM
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Hello,

Well anyway, This is just something real nice to watch, ok a bit freakish to be sure but nice work all the same, plus there is a lot of chisel work to be seen in the series of three videos with the title, het jonge Schaap in fact a good look will reveal I think the mother of all framing chisels in a short clip from one
Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by D Wagstaff; 07/30/12 01:55 PM.
Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: D Wagstaff] #29494 07/31/12 01:04 AM
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Caleb Offline OP
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My keen eye is failing me. Where can one spot the matriarchal chisel?

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: Caleb] #29495 07/31/12 07:01 AM
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Hello,

The individual videos sit a bit chaotic in the listing. Better to type, het Jonge Schaap in the search field. But here is the one I had in mind with the special chisel. Among other frames she pops up at the 1:40 point.
It may even be incorrect to call some of these tools framing tools at all and call them millwright's tools instead.
And look, they all have tang mounted grips. I have never seen a Dutch chisel with any other kind of grip mounting.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by D Wagstaff; 07/31/12 07:07 AM.
Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: Caleb] #29501 08/01/12 12:46 AM
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Caleb Offline OP
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Alright, I would like to thank everyone for there valuable input and I am going to make one definite, final inquiry and then put this topic to rest. If one were to get the following chisels which ones would benefit the most from side bevels (or any at all)?

1"
1 1/2"
2"
Slick (>2")

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: Caleb] #29502 08/01/12 01:10 AM
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I like the slick to be thin not heavy, in general. I think the 1" is on the small side. I favor the 1.5", so a beveled edge on that one. I just don't see where I ever need to pound or pry to the extent that I need a thick heavy chisel.

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: TIMBEAL] #29503 08/01/12 02:45 AM
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Caleb Offline OP
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How big of a slick would you recommend?

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: Caleb] #29504 08/01/12 02:59 AM
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If I recall this one is 3" wide maybe 3-1/4".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKN7WqT4H...mp;feature=plcp

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: TIMBEAL] #29505 08/01/12 09:45 AM
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D Wagstaff Offline
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Hello,

So returning to the subjectivity of opinion it is mine that a good slick is one with sides beveled, regardless of width.

I like your videos Tim. As you can see, I've only got a half Pyrenees.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: D Wagstaff] #29506 08/01/12 10:08 AM
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A little mix? We had a male with wolf markings, that is some brownish spots here and there. He died a while back. As I stated I like the slick to be on the lighter side, some are just too heavy to wield with any finesse.

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: TIMBEAL] #29507 08/01/12 03:05 PM
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Yes. The other, not Pyrenees half - I don't know an English name for it but coming out of the Alps. So a true mountain dog living here lower than sea level.

Last edited by D Wagstaff; 08/01/12 03:06 PM.
Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: D Wagstaff] #29509 08/03/12 12:18 AM
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Hi Don, would that be a sennenhund? My grandfather had a variety of Swiss farm dog that he used as a cattle drover that was very calm, never frightening to cattle, that could move cattle smoothly through a village to reach outer fields.

I would like to return to chisels. My strong preference is for antique laminated chisels for several reasons. Cost, most of my old chisels were under $30, the majority under $15, most from flea markets and antique marts, granted chisels seem to be less common today than a dozen years ago old is still viable. The old chiels used simple carbon steel, are tempered very hard and are easy to sharpen to a very fine edge. Laminated blades have curvature from tip to heel that gives clearence at the handle and equally important produces a counterforce under heavy mallet blows at the tip that helps mitigate the tendency of digging in. Old chisels also have a slight taper in width of the blade that prevents jamming while chopping in deeper mortises.

I differ with Tim, I like the chisel to be equal to the mortise width when chopping out drilled mortises. My local experience is almost wholly with hardwoods and I have found that a chisel will tend to turn and dig in with oak when a smaller chisel encounters thicker wood in the corner of the mortise than at the center of the mortise.

For seven years my only slick was a Barr small slick, short blade, 2 1/2 wide and cranked neck, that I continue to use and love, however, in the past fifteen years I have added other slicks and my favorite is old, long bladed, heavy and 3 1/2 wide, maybe its the oak talking to me.

Anyhow, a carpenter will acquire, shape, tune, retune, sharpen and hone a tool and finally the what carpenter chooses is the right tool. It is all about how the work shapes the carpenter, the carpenter shapes the tool and the tool shapes the wood. I cannot predict what you will find to be most usefull because we, the work, the methods and materials are so varied.

Good luck.

Last edited by Roger W Nair; 08/03/12 12:30 AM.
Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: Roger W Nair] #29511 08/03/12 09:14 PM
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D Wagstaff Offline
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Hello,

Now, what's this, Swiss evening or something? You would be right in your guess Roger. The Swiss dog being mostly black, the Pyrenees all white, the one I have then is a logical outcome of the two. I wont go any further on the topic because, well because the topic is dogs and it's not a good idea to wright about dogs no matter what and also because I am rather pissed off at mine after she disappeared for half the day and came home covered in mud and cow pie.
I agree with you about laminated chisels and also the quality of the steel and tempering and the curvature.
This interplay between woodworker material and tool is important to sort through, how the one shapes the other, its quite cyclical isn't it though, and the dominant factor in the development of the tools we use. This is why I verily despise the tool seller or manufacturer Veritas with their overly designed concept of tools. It's as if they were saying to the woodworker, "just move along there and leave the important work all to us..." Would you trust a company with so little understanding of where the tools we use have come from? Not I, no matter what the quality of their newest and most recently improved tool steel may be.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: D Wagstaff] #29512 08/04/12 01:12 AM
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Yes, valid point on the way tools shape people. On reason I gave up on Stanley Sharp Saws, some dim whit put a large hole on the end of the saw for the user to get his gentle guiding fingers caught in. A contributing factor leading me to take up pull saws. I have an old laminated, deep mortice, Underhill. but it just doesn't do what my Barr does for me.

And now it goes to the dogs... Pyrenees are not all white, many have wolf markings, pigment spots in the skin making the hair grey or brownish in spots, typically ears show these off colors, as I mentioned previously. Also the nose is suppose to be all black, we have had two with rose/pink colored noses and one with wolf markings and true black nose, and he was a big goof to boot. They are guard animals and not heard oriented. They have the most wonderful deep bark. Tia is now shedding, I can pull out the prime under coat by the bag full, in long strings. I have a hat made from such fiber and in the winter when it gets wet it smells like a dog.

Re: Side-Beveled Chisels [Re: TIMBEAL] #29513 08/05/12 01:40 PM
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Hello,

Actually my main point was to deride, degrade and belittle the company Veritas.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

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