I was just curious how people mark their lines for joinery. Marking knife vs. pencil? I have always used a pencil in the past but I'm messing around with a marking knife. Also, any recommendations on preferred style of knife? Just curious...

Hello,

I don't use either of the options that you have proposed, pencils that are always breaking and needing to be sharpened so often it makes your hair curl, and making such inconsistent lines, starting out thin and crisp at the one side and then getting fatter and blurry by the time you get to the other side - and I'm talking about drawing one line - and even though they are getting better, or I'm wising up to the cheap ones, it seems they went through a time when they were of such poor quality they weren't even worth using for kindling. Knives, good if your cutting dovetail in a mahogany chest of drawers but the lines can strain the eyes on such a scale as house building.

Here's my set-up for marking:


if you don't mind a bit of ink on your fingers from time to time. Bamboo pens can be had commercially but I prefer making my own. Stays sharp a long time and makes a good line on end grain to boot, lines remain easily seen even outside even after the rain.
Since getting a handle on using ink, I'll never go back. Still, I keep a pencil stub in my pocket just for jotting down.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

I use pencil with a variety of hardness. Awl could be an option, scratch the line. Knife if it is critical and I am using the chainsaw, otherwise pencil. Not sure if I could deal with ink, would have to see/experience it being used. How is the ink with wet wood?

Please pay attention Tim.

He's asking about green wood not wet wood from rain. I think it's a fair question that should be given a fair answer.

I layout with a pencil so that I can visualize the joint, then I scribe it with a standard utility knife.

One teacher told us to cut the pencil line down the middle regardless of how wide it was. I find that sometimes difficult to do. Paring to a knife line is easier for me.

So Don you are saying the ink works just fine on green, dew, rain, fog, snow, frost and ice covered timber. Correct? Just wet in general, Jim.

I strive to cut half the pencil line. So I can see I have not crossed the line as some fragments are still visible.

I layout with a very sharp awl and homemade mortise gauges that cut into the wood. I check the layout aand then ink the scored lines with a steel split quill ruling pen from old drafting kits. The result is more precise than any other method I have ever used.

I use a pen, essentially like Don but a little more modern

A regular ball point pen works in most instances, but if the wood is overly wet it doesn't always do too hot, though you may be surprised.

A higher quality ball point seems to work even on wood that has just been rained on, at least that is my experience.

I don't like to use an awl, because sometimes it gets caught and follows the grain when marking parallel to it. Knife lines are nice in instances that require supreme accuracy, which in general when working in green or somewhat green wood, such accuracy is an exercise in futility...

Well, that was a question worth asking. I guess I will have to do a little experimenting and see what works. I've tried a pen in the past but had bad luck with green rough wood. I may try some better pens as D L Bahler suggested. I like the idea of D Wagstaff's ink pot, but I think I would spill more ink than I would draw. It would be the Exxon Valdez of timber framing! Thanks all for sharing.

I use a 9mm mechanical pencil. Always the same thickness of line and you never have to sharpen. I then score the line before cutting.

Hello,

Tim, I would have loved to answer your question, before it became a hostile attack, as far as my experience overlapped your demanding qualifications. I guess now you, or others will have to just give it a go to see how it suits your work. But my meaning was actually that over time and in various outdoor conditions these lines are relatively durable, i.e. they don't wash away, they don't fade and they don't rub off.

Maybe that's one drawback or maybe it is an extra incentive to think clearly before putting ink to wood.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Don, I was not being hostile, only clarifying my lackluster question. As far as not paying attention I did not ask how it held up to the weather, I gleaned that from your post. So please don't dissolve this opportunity for learning. Jim's post limited my question only to green wood, it was meant to encompass all wet wood, green included. We don't always have dry wood to work with.

Is this ink home made?

And the photo, that is a lot of sap wood hope it is an interior piece. a fast growing pine?

We all process differently, one reason I only use pencil and even then make mistakes that are a little regrettable. Scribbled out lines, hand planed at times to wash away any traces of confusion, even feeble attempts with big erasers. I sometimes amaze myself with my results, I think "wow, that was close". As and example, while sitting on the boring machine and clarity came, I end up with some heavy chisel marks(end of mortices) and one half bored hole. I could have finished the whole thing, but stop. I have seen my share of finished but unused mortices. Part of the art is the ability to over come this in creative ways.

Hello,


Unless there is a film or standing water on the wood's surface, in ice or liquid form ok, to be clear, the viscosity of the ink can be altered to suit different conditions - a little more, a little less water in the ink pot increase or decrease the relative concentration of ink. And the wetter the wood the more care/skill needed. I mean, on good dry wood I can work relatively carelessly but with wetter wood I am sure to lift the edge of the square off the wood so it won't draw the ink and smear the line and I'll pull the pen more slowly with more pressure. Ok let it be understood that is within certain boundaries. If you were to mark on iced wood common sense tells us that the ink will run once the ice begins to melt - Green wood in and of itself, sawn, newly planed surface or planed, doesn't make the dipped ink pen less effective. And whether the wood is ring porous or ring defuse would also be considered in mixing the ink but neither would preclude its use.

I will just repeat, what for me has been another plus, that since and when I use this method there is always a little additional pause to rethink before making any line.

I have sought, even on this forum, a recipe for making the ink myself and have experimented with water, pigment and rabbit glue, but not with success till now. I can get the flake sent here and its cheap and keeps indefinitely. I also use one with no glue that is less indelible.

The wood from the picture was for an inside project but we should probably not discuss further the quality of native softwoods available here. If you want to discuss elm I'm willing...

You know there are other refinements to the basic technique I describe to deal with smearing and tippages and things, I'm just being a bit primitive here at this point.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Have you tried walnut ink? A strong ink can be made by soaking walnut husks, and then cooking down that water until thick. There may be more to it that that, but as I understand it walnut ink is pretty easy to make and more or less fool proof.

Then there is iron gall ink, a little more challenging to make, and probably not worth the extra efforts as its benefits over walnut ink are not a factor when marking joints (it is more stable in color, and is black instead of intensely dark brown)

But the question is, is European walnut suitable for ink? I'm not so sure it is...

Walnut ink is cool to make and use, but IIRC from my time in art school it faded quickly when left if sunlight. Maybe not a bad thing...

add rusty nails to the mixture, and the tanins from the walnut will react wit the iron and enrich the ink, also making it bolder.

All this sounds very complicated. Home made ink with walnuts and rusty nails...lol
I think I will stick to pencils. As far as keeping them sharp, there are an abundance of sharp tools laying about to keen the edge when required.

Thane

Complicated? Not at all.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

When I started marking the timbers with an awl I experienced a change in attitude about layout, I felt everything was more specific and had more focus and commitment with every stroke. I also felt I was acting in closer agreement with tradition since old frames in my area were marked with awls and cutting gauges. I liked the fact that striking lines left witness to the process of layout and over strikes and mistakes became "part of the story" in the words of Rudy Christian. I ink the marks only after checking, so nothing gets cut without ink and checking.

Well said Roger and I respect everyone's methods of marking. I was only thinking of the future generations 100 years from now. Pencil marks left on my frames will let them know that it was made at a much later time period then the frames with the knife marks. I'm only thinking of the future people by not confusing them.

I think it depends on your material and tools. I've used pens, fine markers, pencils, and knives. I liked knifing for a chainsaw cut on finished pine, but it seems pointless on rough sawn spruce or fir. I find working conditions and tool use play a big part in how thick or visible I make my line. Also of importance is wether I'm cutting the joint immediately or someone else is cutting it later.

I prefer Dixon 2.5's, mechanical leads break under my use, and harder pencils leave too feint a line for my liking. I have a flat-sided (More reliably rides the chosen straitedge) reconfigured carving tool which takes and holds a fine point for Awl-line layout when circumstance or the client's wishes demand.

Thane - I'm not sure it is possible to suggest pencil lines are or ever will be a way to date frames now or in the future. I've occasionally found total pencil layout on earlier frames. Pencil manufacture Stateside began in 1812 in response to the then ongoing blockade, and the stop in flow of British made pencils - This obviously to fill an existing demand. And the oldest existing example of any type is said to be a 17th Century Carpenters Pencil.

Sorry about the aside - Pencils as used by Carpenter's are an area of revolving focus again at the moment > I'm finding very fine line Red Grease Pencil layout on the current project frame which dates to the first few years of Square Rule. Interestingly they used the red lines to highlight the difference between those and adjacent lines - Lines struck at theoretical depth of Housing as opposed to the Awl struck Shoulder / Cut line to go into that Housing, And lines struck and carried around to delineate the Relish for a mortise for a Boxed Tenons as opposed to those which described the end cut and the Housing which are awl struck - If anyone here has researched Grease Pencils, their use in layout or for Carpenters Marks, give me a Shout.

Very informative Will. Thx for the history lesson.
Once again I find my foot in my mouth.

Thane

Also, lead pencils are documented at least to the middle ages.They were then used to make drafts when doing illumination in manuscripts, because the lead left a light line that could be removed if an error was made (kind of like later graphite pencils)

Hello,

The substance of the markings is interesting enough, be it lead of times gone by, graphite mixed with wax and clay, rabbit skin ink or a scratch into the wood's surface. Also not to be forgotten is the mechanics of your tool. For example my bamboo stick is shaped to suit my preference even though I stick to the standard form in general, being left handed, I make it accordingly, with a knife edge, single beveled, relieved at the back corner. The flattened backside means I align the square exactly at the measured indications, no accommodating an offset to account for pencil thickness or bevel angle, which as I pointed out change from one side of the line to the other when using pencil.

And what's more the mechanics of an engineers pencil is poorly suited for the work because the lead is gripped in the jaw at only one concentrated point where it is bound to snap off as has happened to Will T.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff