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Strength of tapered pegs #30118 01/22/13 02:10 AM
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bob franzen Offline OP
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Question from a newbie. (Did a search for this answer but found nothing)
In using tapered pegs for draw boring, does the smaller/tapered end of the peg create a lesser value in terms of engineering (or strength) than a peg that has full contact with both mortise cheeks?



Thank you for the opportunity to ask these questions!

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: bob franzen] #30121 01/22/13 06:45 AM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Hi Bob,

I sure others will chime in. I may not be understanding you question fully. Most pegs are only tapered at the tip, and once driven in, they tapered portion is typically outside the joint.

Does this help?

Regards, jay

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30124 01/22/13 12:34 PM
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D Wagstaff Offline
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Hello,

Basically it's two separate principles involved. The one with an insert of tapering long sides, normally called a wedge where there is a single bearing side which gives its own particular advantages like ease of backing it out for dismantling, for example, but also it can be knocked further in to accommodate expansion and shrinking that might be associated with environmental, lets say seasonal changes or wood drying out. The taper of a wedge is ideally associated with a corresponding opening. The other principle is the peg or parallel sided insert, its advantage being consistent cross-sectional strength across the length, taking both instances relative in nature to each other. In that case the pegs, as Jay writes, are mostly only tapered or pointed on an end to ease entry. My own approach, one I take from my furniture background, is to make pegs longer than you might imagine, twice the length of the beam say, give them a pointed end and then bevel one third of the length, this all normally being then removed and the peg trimmed flush.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: D Wagstaff] #30127 01/22/13 04:06 PM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Hi Bob,

Don made some important distinctions. Are you asking about pegs, (trunnels) or wedges for drawn joinery. Don's description is spot on, and we would have to know which method you are talking about to fully answer any questions.

To add to Don's description, most trunnels are a minimum of ~2/5 longer than the material thickness they are meant to pass through. You will find variances in this, of cores, but that is a mean average as observed in both North American house/barn wrighting and Asian timber wrighting modalities; sometimes that may even be ~1/2. So, for example, if you have a 200 mm (~8") post your trunnel will be 280 mm to 400 mm long. The extra length gets the tapered end outside the joint and also allows you to trim the striking end of the trunnel, should it start to "mushroom," or "split apart," before you have driven it all the way through.

Regards, jay

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30129 01/22/13 06:06 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Most joinery is in compression and hardly needs to be peg. Let's not forget draw bored holes are not all equal, a tapered peg allows for just the right snugness needed to pull the joint together during raising. If you have a 3/4 inch peg hole and a rived octagonal peg the corners will be larger than the 3/4 and will dig into the round bore hole of the mortice, in effect causing it to wedge the tenon and risking blowing out the relish on the back, if driven too hard.

Many old pegs I see are a standard size with little taper and a sharp point hacked on the end. I find this odd in comparison to my preferred longer tapered pegs.

I have no concerns with strength of a tapered peg. On true tension joinery the scale of the joinery is increased, larger hole, longer relish at the ends and perhaps an added wedge. Much different than your typical post, girt or brace joinery. My pegs in this case are still tapered but not as much.

A video showing a tapered peg. It is nice to be able to go through the box of pegs and select just the right peg for the drawn peg hole, they vary in size. Notice the size difference and amount of taper. My daughter just watched this and said " oh, that is a lot of taper" .
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T-txHEaSoQ

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: TIMBEAL] #30130 01/22/13 07:54 PM
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Hello TIMBEAL,

Please don't think I'm being too critical, I mean not to be, and I found the video of the young lady making pegs adorable, but I'm afraid that peg would be a reject. Jim's observation was I think, "a wooden carrot."

Being a traditional timber wright, I tend to research exhaustively a vernacular style, then render my components to the same degree and nuance. So, if you don't mind, I have to make some observations about your feed back. Please, feel free to engage me if I seem to be inaccurate on any point; I will try to address each.

Quote:
Most joinery is in compression and hardly needs to be peg.
Though we can rely on gravity for many types of joints, such is the case with many types of "housed lap joints." Those with tenons, even "thread tenons" and "teasel tenons," are often pegged, (and should be,) for seismic and climate events.

Quote:
Let's not forget draw bored holes are not all equal, a tapered peg allows for just the right snugness needed to pull the joint together during raising.
If you are saying "equal," in application, I agree. However, if you are saying there not equal in size, I'm not sure how that can come to pass considering they are drilled. If you are saying they don't line up the same, that is a condition of layout that really should be address. In the countless number of vintage dwelling and barns that I have been part of, I would agree that many present with different degrees of craftsmanship, and yes you can find errors, but as a body of work, they are relatively consistent within a certain style, particularly the bore holes, both in North American and European frames, as well as, the chiseled types of Asia.

Quote:
If you have a 3/4 inch peg hole and a rived octagonal peg the corners will be larger than the 3/4 and will dig into the round bore hole of the mortice, in effect causing it to wedge the tenon and risking blowing out the relish on the back, if driven too hard.
If a peg is out of proportion enough to cause relish failure, you have a trunnel that needs to be replaced and/or shaped more accurately.

Quote:
Many old pegs I see are a standard size with little taper and a sharp point hacked on the end. I find this odd in comparison to my preferred longer tapered pegs.
You should not find this odd at all, this is the way a trunnel is suppose to be made. This is how they are found, in most heritage frames, here, in Europe and Asia. The long taper you are describing is not the way they are suppose to be made. Now if you find them to you liking and they fill the bore hole well on both sides of the joint, then that is to your choice. However, emulating the methodologies of our timber wrights of the past, tends to render a trunnel in a speedy and timely manner, as well as one that is in good proportion. These techniques are many and well tested.

Quote:
I have no concerns with strength of a tapered peg. On true tension joinery the scale of the joinery is increased, larger hole, longer relish at the ends and perhaps an added wedge. Much different than your typical post, girt or brace joinery. My pegs in this case are still tapered but not as much.
I may be missing some points here. Wedge through tenons, (like you would find on a Swing beam of a Dutch barn and a few of the Bull beam barns,) are wedge then peg at a later time. This nuance is lost to many not knowing that these bore holes are made after wedging and/or not at all. True draw trunnels, whether round or square, rely on the accuracy of both layout, bore mortise execution, and trunnel formation.

Quote:
A video showing a tapered peg. It is nice to be able to go through the box of pegs and select just the right peg for the drawn peg hole, they vary in size.
Simply put, they should not vary in-size to the degree that one will not replace the other. If they do, they are not shaped sufficiently, and the technique of manufacture must be refined.

Regards, jay

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 01/22/13 08:07 PM.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30131 01/22/13 11:28 PM
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Perhaps, Jay, if you lived in a different time say the future and viewed some of my work you would be making skinny pegs, too.

Spike or screw the half laps, is another choice. Nails were used traditionally. Threaded tenon? have not come across this term.

It is the amount of draw that can make for a tight fit, not the size of the hole. The holes in the tenon and mortice are the same size, just not aligned perfectly in each joint. I am not a CNC machine.


The following quote is a good example of where I can pick out a slim peg and not wreck the relish.
"If a peg is out of proportion enough to cause relish failure, you have a trunnel that needs to be replaced and/or shaped more accurately." ......If your draw is on the tight side and you insert a full sized peg you will bust the relish out.

I have no problem rendering a peg in a speedy and timely manner, as well as one that is in good proportion.

Yes, I have seen wedged half dovetailed tie beams with no pegs, the sad thing is no one came back and pegged it. In one particular case the joint had pulled apart by about 4 inches. It didn't even get iron staples. Don't get to see much dutch barn material in my part of the states.

quote from jay....
"Simply put, they should not vary in-size to the degree that one will not replace the other. If they do, they are not shaped sufficiently, and the technique of manufacture must be refined.

Not sure what you are pointing out, but here is and attempt.
Again, the holes are not varying in size it is the amount of draw that is in question, and hence, by having pegs that are not cookie cut are handy, I don't have to set down on the horse and shave pegs during raising. Although I have been known to do just that, not my preference.

For the OP, I don't see a tapered peg being an issue for the majority of joinery used.

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: TIMBEAL] #30133 01/23/13 03:09 AM
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bob franzen Offline OP
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Thank you gentlemen. So nice to be able to ask a newbie-type question and get so many very qualified answers.

Received much info to gestate upon.

I took a TF class a year ago where it seems to me the taper of the pegs was very long, and upon knocking them in, seems they did not contact the far side of the cheek at all, but perhaps I'm incorrect.

Great forum. . .do appreciate your time and expertise.
Bob

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: bob franzen] #30134 01/23/13 03:50 AM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Hi Bob,

Can't wait to here what you deliver after your "ideas" gestate for awhile. wink As you can tell from the posts there are many options and opinions.

Quote:
I took a TF class a year ago where it seems to me the taper of the pegs was very long, and upon knocking them in, seems they did not contact the far side of the cheek at all, but perhaps I'm incorrect.


Bob, I would guess that you are not incorrect. This seems to be a trend in some areas and I believe a result of break in lineage. There are many nuances to the craft of timber framing and unless you are fortunate enough to have apprenticed with traditional timber wrights and/or done extensive historical work, these subtleties are often lost. Like trunnel techniques. Folks have kind'a developed there own methods.

Once again, good luck and keep us up to speed on your progress,

Regards, jay

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: TIMBEAL] #30135 01/23/13 05:56 AM
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Hello TIMBEAL,

I'm glad you responded to my post and I will try and address any points that warrant further discussion and/or validate further certain points.

Quote:
In the Spike or screw the half laps, is another choice. Nails were used traditionally. Threaded tenon? have not come across this term.
I do agree that metal spikes of both bronze, copper and later iron, have been around for thousands of years, but only in extremely rare cases did iron spikes ever get used in traditional large joinery applications. Historically, in all global regions that have timber architecture, it is a very rare, to never, occurrence other than in cladding and smaller wood items, such as furniture. There is some application of iron rods, straps and bolts, but even that application is limited in traditional timber framing, usually reserved for public/industrial architecture and/or often added much later to repair a failed joint.

"Teasel" tenons, found here in North America, are a smaller form of the "threaded," tenons you may find in Europe and routinely find in some regions/forms of Asian timber architecture. Often pegged and/or "shim" wedged to resist uplift during wind events.

Quote:
It is the amount of draw that can make for a tight fit, not the size of the hole. The holes in the tenon and mortice are the same size, just not aligned perfectly in each joint.
I was not insinuating that you, or anyone else needed to be a CNC machine, and I apologize if it I sounded that way. I agree with your assessment of trunnels used in draw joints but would point out that the size of the hole relates to the applied trunnel and the strength of the draw and the joint, both of which correlates to the accuracy of the trunnels shape and placement, this is proven historical, and empirically.

I validate this observation, by the tens of thousands of pegs I have either removed, replace or observed in frames throughout North America, and to a limited degree ,the Middle East and Asian. To keep the observation closer to home and this conversation, timbered house and barn frame trunnels are normally hand made, but most are very consistent and uniform in size and shape according to there specific application. The tapper is very seldom left inside the timber but out side, this is the case because the trunnels are most often cut flush and you must observe closely to determine which side they went in from. Pegs with random tappers and/or sticking out is an indication that the frame may well have been relocated and the trunnel a replacement. "Dead Head," trunnels have virtually not tapper in most cases I have observed or researched, often square at the end, such as in a Threshing floor.

Quote:
The following quote is a good example of where I can pick out a slim peg and not wreck the relish. "If a peg is out of proportion enough to cause relish failure, you have a trunnel that needs to be replaced and/or shaped more accurately." ......If your draw is on the tight side and you insert a full sized peg you will bust the relish out. .
I stand by my portion of that quote and put simply it is not the peg that should be adjusted, it is the bore mortise in the tenon, and there is very clear historical precedence for my statement both in observed frames and in my training as a traditional barn wright. You seldom to never see large gouges of any kind in the tools of most modern timber wrights, but often, and commonly, find them in antique stores. The "why," is because this is one of the tools that leads to a technique that was commonly employed but is now lost and seldom implemented. Anyone that has done any extensive restoration or historical research can tell you that offset bore holes are sometimes elongated, this was done with a gouge. So I say again, you do not undersized the peg, you correct the bore mortise, that is the traditional method and the strongest of the two solutions, the trunnel is not suppose to be undersized. Also, note that gouges, both "V" and "out cannel," at one time here in North America, and still in Asian, were very common timber wrighting tools and really should be again.

When the craft of the timber wright began to weaken in the face of the industrial age, and the loss of a vast wealth of knowledge held by the people that went to the different great wars and never came home; many of the finer, but important, nuances of the craft, died with them. I have done everything I can to restore as many of those subtleties I was taught and have learned through research and restoration work back to this craft of timber wrighting. Trunnel methodologies is one that has many refinements that have been overlooked.

Quote:
Yes, I have seen wedged half dovetailed tie beams with no pegs, the sad thing is no one came back and pegged it. In one particular case the joint had pulled apart by about 4 inches. It didn't even get iron staples. Don't get to see much dutch barn material in my part of the states.
I did not mention "dovetailed," joints but I will address your statement. I doubt very much that any one forgot to go back a peg them, seldom were they pegged, some in the mid span of a beam, maybe. They are a gravity joint and shim wedged is the preferred securing method if a "dovetail" joint is employed. The "pull out," failure you observed, (I'm assuming this was a vintage frame,) is a common failing for this joint, and one of it's weaknesses structurally; in frames with the shim wedging you seldom observe this taking place, which speaks to the variances in craftsmanship even in vintage frames.

Quote:
quote from jay....
"Simply put, they should not vary in-size to the degree that one will not replace the other. If they do, they are not shaped sufficiently, and the technique of manufacture must be refined. Not sure what you are pointing out, but here is and attempt.
Again, the holes are not varying in size it is the amount of draw that is in question, and hence, by having pegs that are not cookie cut are handy, I don't have to set down on the horse and shave pegs during raising. Although I have been known to do just that, not my preference.
This again goes back to what I was stating earlier, your trunnels are to be uniform in size, shape and length according to application and if the layout and/or execution of a trunnel mortise is improperly offset, the method to correct this, is to adjust the the trunnel mortise not the placement of an undersized trunnel. Trunnel size may or may not contribute to the overall strength of a frame, there is some very strong academic debates about that still going on. IMO their size are of consideration but in this case, I am strictly addressing the draw trunnel techniques used historically and the methods that have stood the test of time.

Regards, jay

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30136 01/23/13 07:48 AM
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Hello,

There are a couple of gaps that could be filled in as the discussion goes on, though I would plead for making a clear distinction between peg or trunnel or what ever you happen to call it - here it is toognagel, just to throw that in - use and wedge use where a wedge comes into play, if I can say it without repeating myself because I don't see them as interchangeable in any situation.

So, the gaps, one being maybe already implied but not mentioned and that is, I guess it is understood the pegs are made, if properly conceived, from riven material. That was in my mind what might account for the variance Tim was going on about. Maybe not. The other, that for me is also unclear is the role of - now it's difficult because I always forget how it's called in English, here it's called the toogijzer- wait, drift pin, that's it. Using a drift pin in the assembly phase is in part meant to even out alignment where the holes in the mortice sides correlate with the hole in the tenon but that is only one reason behind its use. I think in order to understand draw boring the role of the drift pin has to be understood.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: D Wagstaff] #30137 01/23/13 08:46 AM
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Hello Don,

Save me from myself, you and I could probably, if we got together in person, really enjoy the conversations we would have over debating the finer points of things timber related, as we did recently. Tonight, I racked my brain to remember a point I was going to add to my previous entry about fitting draw joints. (I do agree with you, pegs, trunnels, or toognagel, they do have many names.) Now I can add it, but no better will I state it, than you have.

If you are assembling a timber joint, that is intended to be drawn together by an offset in the peg hole, and you can see that it is out of alignment, the use of an iron "Draw Pin" or "Drift Pin", (toogijzer-thank you Don,) was commonly used in traditional assemblies, this was not always the case, but more often than not, it was.

Since Don jogged my old memories, I should relate one of the first time I used a gouge on a timber frame and saw a real "toogijzer," (and I use that name as a nod thank you to Don,) and the fact that it was Dutch in origin, and belonged to the Amish barn wrights I apprenticed to. We are going back to about 1974 or 75, I was but a teen and only helping at that point. A bent was being assembled, there was numerous stages of fitting occurring, with the hands that were present for the raising. One of the joints had rejected it's "drift pin," and the timber was withdrawn. You could plainly see the misalignment, indicated by the compression line caused by the "drift pin." The layout of the hole was to close too the shoulder of the joint. One of the three men I answered to, came over and with a piece of chalk, darkened the compression line, and pointed to my gouge. (My mother was an artisan in several mediums and by that age I had already assisted her in roughing out carvings in both stone and wood, so I was comfortable with tools of this nature.) These men were kind but blunt when working, said little and expected work out of you. He pointed to the crescent shape of the chalk mark, said "cut no more," and walked away. I removed the designated amount, (about ~4 mm) the joint was reassembled. The "drift pin," was driven in, quickly removed and an oil soaked locust trunnel driven home. This would become one of countless lessons that I learned, that I have never read in a book, at least not in English. Again, thank you Don for the reminder, and a trip into my own memories.

Regards, jay


Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 01/23/13 08:56 AM.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30139 01/23/13 01:25 PM
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Yes, all my peg stock is rived.

I for sure have not had the chance to work directly with or under a supervisor. As such, may be missing some of the nuances you mention, jay.

I feel as if you are painting me into a corner, jay. From your stance all my peg holes are horribly drawn and all need gouging, my worst nightmare. In my empirical experience I may see one or two holes out of a hundred which need a skinny peg. The vast majority of pegs I use are of a uniform shape, a heavy taper for the first 1/3 of the peg and mostly uniform, the remainder. It is my choice to use the ready peg which fits instead of gouging out the peg hole. In some important cases I have reshaped the hole, even plugging and redrilling.

The majority of my work is square rule and only fitted the day of raising. Of recent I have undertaken some plumb line scribe and fitted the whole frame with "wooden" draw pins. This was a humbling experience and more work.

In some cased the peg is of no consequence. So, just how important is the peg? If you know the limits.... you don't have to stick to the rules all the time, there are some freedoms.

No peg bracing.....
http://forums.tfguild.net/ubbthreads.php...amp;Words=unpeg

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: TIMBEAL] #30140 01/23/13 04:41 PM
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Hello Tim,

I do apologize if I came on to strong, that was not my purpose, nor did I intend to place you in any corner, again mea culpa. I just thought that Bob F. would benefit from what I had to share. I am more than confident that your frames are not in anyway at great jeopardy from your current pegging method. You seem to have great passion for the craft and think much about it.

I would like to deal with your comments about braces first. I have known of Rudy for a long time and loved that post you referenced. I was taught, and to this day, do not ever peg braces, it is folly to do so. I will stop at that, because it is one of my "pet peeves," that they are so often pegged, which is pointless considering the amount of wood they don't have on their tenons. I could ramble for a long time on this topic and the different methods of application, design and use of "compression braces."

Quote:
In some cased the peg is of no consequence. So, just how important is the peg? If you know the limits.... you don't have to stick to the rules all the time, there are some freedoms.
I do not really disagree with this statement, I would just amend it slightly and you can tell me what you think...

"In certain cases the peg in a joint is of little consequence, or it's labor is limited. Their importance may only be applicable during certain times, such as during some seismic or climate event. Many constructs of timber wrighting are only guidelines, some are rules, and if you have mastered a segment of the craft they may be bent."

Regards, jay

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30146 01/24/13 12:16 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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[quote=
"In certain cases the peg in a joint is of little consequence, or it's labor is limited. Their importance may only be applicable during certain times, such as during some seismic or climate event. Many constructs of timber wrighting are only guidelines, some are rules, and if you have mastered a segment of the craft they may be bent."

Regards, jay [/quote]

Yup, that is better.

I do like to peg braces, if only for assembling purposes. In most of this peg discussion I have been picturing pegging of braces. I should give a frame a go and use no pegs in the braces. My next frame will have no braces so I won't be able to apply it for that job. It is a plank wall with pegs in the edges of the planks giving it wracking resistance. Planks morticed into top plate and sill.

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: TIMBEAL] #30147 01/24/13 12:40 AM
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Hi Tim, et al.,

Boy, your getting into all the fun timber framing methods. I want to share a little something with you about plank wall construction, but first braces.

So everyone understands, I'm in pain at the moment from biting my lip. That way I won't get carried away with this topic, since its off the post's topic. Anyone that I have gotten to abandon pegging braces in their frames, has never gone back, and some will not do jobs if anyone insists they do. Enough said for now.

Why most timber wrights don't do one of these, or try to sell a room of a frame in this style, is beyond me. They are awesome. They have species of this frame type in every wood culture that I have found practiced. My Native American culture has several versions. If you combine this technique with some of the Asian horizontal pass through braces, you achieve the very best in framing: large thermal mass-better than most log homes, a flexible yet resilient frame, wall thicknesses can be doubled for a massive thermal barriers and the pass through braces give you a perfect framing for fenestration. Tim, you will have a fun time with this I'm sure.

Regards, jay

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 01/24/13 12:55 AM.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30148 01/24/13 01:54 AM
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Oh yes, it will be my third plank frame.

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: TIMBEAL] #30149 01/24/13 03:47 AM
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I'd like to return to the original topic of peg strength. If the readers are guild members there should be an engineering peg report in the members section.

My personal bias in tapered pegs would be more to Tims liking in shape but not in the making. My tapered pegs are black locust, machine made with long taper and octagonal. The basic dimensions for a one inch bore are 61/64" flat to flat on the thick end, 3/4" on the thin end, tapering back 10" and 12" overall and point the end.

When driving the pegs, I align the bores with a erectors spud wrench, drive the peg making certain the joint seats continue driving until the peg tightens inthe bore and stop once tight. The basic problem is that once high resistance to driving happens compression damage occurs on the peg or in the bore, continued driving could shear short relish. When compression damage happens in wood the damaged fiber has lost forever it's compressive strength. Also prestressing the joint reduces effective capacity. So go easy.

Jay wrote earlier about driving pegs and mushrooming and splitting and cutting off the damaged end, In my view that is completely wrong, damaged on the end means the peg and bore are injured, drive it back out and replace. So use good technique, regard setting the draw bore peg as setting a spring, over driving defeats the purpose and weakens the system.

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Roger Nair] #30150 01/24/13 08:22 AM
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Hello,

Now, the shape of the peg in cross-section, that is whether it is round or faceted is interesting and up to now I have always taken it as a matter of preference, regional practices, or in the case of restoration, reproduction. Personally I do like a faceted peg because my sense is they drive more readily, but OK. Still, I think tapering it is ill suited to the purpose, my skew on that being clear by now. Though I do wonder at the loss of long grain in a machine made and tapered insert. It seems like really provoking the shear problem.

Reasonable compression of the tenon hole would not normally be a disadvantage, and that blow out at the relish is not only a matter of over stressing the hole in the tenon, but the fit of the tenon in the mortice in the height. A poor fit will allow the tenon to spread outwards and the only release will be out the back end so a wobbly fit comes at the expense of the draw allowance you can afford. You can put a clamp on a small piece of wood and drive a hell of a nail in at right angle and when the clamp is released the wood fibers will still be intact and stay that way. It also begs the question of the placement of the peg hole(s). I truly try to minimize the distance from the shoulder certainly not more than 1/4 of the length of the tenon. But yeah, taking it easy is key as well.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by D Wagstaff; 01/24/13 08:27 AM.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Roger Nair] #30151 01/24/13 08:35 AM
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Even'n Roger,

Tim and I have established that my observation are just that, mine. I speak from my personal experience and the traditions I have been part of, what I have observed and of course, what I have been able to glean through research.

Quote:
My personal bias in tapered pegs would be more to Tims liking in shape but not in the making.
I don't have any great concern with this, but it is not the way it was done, and as a historical timber wright I will always speak against this as being what should be taught to younger wrights. Have I sawn out peg stock, yes, do I have the experience in assessing a piece of wood to do so, I believe I do, but I wouldn't want that method to be the first choice, nor do I think many young wrights have the experience to cut certain corners.

Quote:
When driving the pegs, I align the bores with a erectors spud wrench, drive the peg making certain the joint seats continue driving until the peg tightens in the bore and stop once tight.
Why wouldn't you use the tool that was meant for this, and in the manner it was meant to be used? Iron draw pins are driven to the point of seating the joint. Now, if there are two trunnel holes, you may drive the second peg with little effort. If only one hole, you remove the draw pin and replace it with a peg, and because the drawn pin has seated well the joint, you trunnel does not work as hard entering the joint.

Quote:
The basic problem is that once high resistance to driving happens compression damage occurs on the peg or in the bore, continued driving could shear short relish. When compression damage happens in wood the damaged fiber has lost forever it's compressive strength. Also pre-stressing the joint reduces effective capacity. So go easy.
This statement seams, at it core, to be sound in reasoning and one should always go as easy as they can, while still getting the joint well fit. If a trunnel is damaged, of course it must be replaced.

Quote:
Jay wrote earlier about driving pegs and mushrooming and splitting and cutting off the damaged end, In my view that is completely wrong, damaged on the end means the peg and bore are injured, drive it back out and replace. So use good technique, regard setting the draw bore peg as setting a spring, over driving defeats the purpose and weakens the system.
I will have to challenge you on your view that this is "completely wrong," because just because a tenon has begun to falter at the striking end, does not mean you have damaged the entire trunnel. Quite the contrary, if a trunnel is beginning to falter and you continue to strike it without the repair, you will damage it to a point that it will have to be replaced. Nor does it mean you have damaged the bore. The goal is not to smash a trunnel into place, but we all know that some do fail. If they present with shear failure, of course they should be removed. However, if the trunnels is well made and of sound wood, trimming the striking end a wee bit is of no great concern. For your second point, "over driving defeats the purpose," I may be reading your meaning wrong. The trunnel should be sound of nature and not damaged. If so, then it does need to be remove and replaced.

I know that I have said this before, and will most likely have to state it again, but what I share in my writing and what I teach isn't a personal theory or idea of what a method should look like. It is hard in written form for the following to not sound verbose, but I'm not guessing at how something should be done, speculating on what was done, or even sharing my own concepts. Most of the time, I simply state facts of the craft through direct observation and teaching from Master wrights, and/or almost 40 years of rather intense research, of this craft, not only here, but within many other traditions. I don't make assumptions, I make observations about methodology and with substantial cross reference. I hope that gives me some credibility when I make a statement about technique. I don't believe we really disagree that much, but I will always challenge a position that is counter to traditions that have hundreds, if not thousand, of years of empirical validation. That's not to say you shouldn't experiment and examine your approaches. I for one, 40 years later, still have epiphanies to what I was being taught all those years in the past.

Regards, jay

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 01/24/13 08:43 AM.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30152 01/25/13 01:18 AM
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Roger Nair Offline
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Hi Jay, you first wrote

The extra length gets the tapered end outside the joint and also allows you to trim the striking end of the trunnel, should it start to "mushroom," or "split apart," before you have driven it all the way through.

I replied

Jay wrote earlier about driving pegs and mushrooming and splitting and cutting off the damaged end, In my view that is completely wrong, damaged on the end means the peg and bore are injured, drive it back out and replace. So use good technique, regard setting the draw bore peg as setting a spring, over driving defeats the purpose and weakens the system.

You answered

I will have to challenge you on your view that this is "completely wrong," because just because a tenon has begun to falter at the striking end, does not mean you have damaged the entire trunnel. Quite the contrary, if a trunnel is beginning to falter and you continue to strike it without the repair, you will damage it to a point that it will have to be replaced. Nor does it mean you have damaged the bore. The goal is not to smash a trunnel into place, but we all know that some do fail. If they present with shear failure, of course they should be removed. However, if the trunnels is well made and of sound wood, trimming the striking end a wee bit is of no great concern. For your second point, "over driving defeats the purpose," I may be reading your meaning wrong. The trunnel should be sound of nature and not damaged. If so, then it does need to be remove and replaced.

Challenge accepted. So what's behind mushrooming and splitting?

1. Mushrooming--cause, driving force too high--reason, peg to thick, offset too great--conclusion, reject

2. Mushrooming--cause, weak peg, such as high ring count ring porous hardwood, unnoticed decay, wrong species--conclusion, reject

3. Splitting--cause, grain runout, flaw in grain--conclusion, reject

4. Splitting--cause, off center hard face hammer blow--conclusion--possible parallel and horizontal shear, reject and strike with a soft face hammer or a mallet

So that is where the completely wrong conclusion stems from.

I also wrote

When driving the pegs, I align the bores with a erectors spud wrench, drive the peg making certain the joint seats continue driving until the peg tightens in the bore and stop once tight.

Jay, you replied

Why wouldn't you use the tool that was meant for this, and in the manner it was meant to be used? Iron draw pins are driven to the point of seating the joint. Now, if there are two trunnel holes, you may drive the second peg with little effort. If only one hole, you remove the draw pin and replace it with a peg, and because the drawn pin has seated well the joint, you trunnel does not work as hard entering the joint.

Try making an effort to understand the other guy. Here is a link to an identical erectors wrench that I have been using about fifteen years

http://www.service.kleintools.com/Tools/...CH/Product/3214

The wrench is completely handy, hangs on a hammer loop, and is specifically designed for aligning bore holes, sorry it's not traditionally proper. Tomatoes Toe-Mahh-Toes

I must admit to peevishness so night night

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Roger Nair] #30155 01/25/13 02:37 AM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Grind off that wrench end and weld on a T-handle, nice iron draw pin.

I don't recall ever seeing mushroomed peg heads. But I have seen clientele drive a peg with a sledge hammer....... the draw was tight..... the peg sharp.... it went in right but was driven out the side of the timber! after making it through the tenon the peg was pushed off alignment. I heard way to much pounding and came to look. Always entertaining to have extra "help".

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Roger Nair] #30156 01/25/13 03:20 AM
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Even'n Roger, et al,

O.K. I'll try to address each point you made Roger.

Quote:
1. Mushrooming--cause, driving force too high--reason, peg to thick, offset too great--conclusion, reject
True mushrooming of wood fibers can happen either by too high a driving force or a light force over repeated strokes, as often happens at raising with folks that cant it hard but can hit often. (one reason we keep striking caps around, just to avoid this.) If the offset is to great, tradition teaches to alter offset and/or you should have used a real Draw pin.


Quote:
2. Mushrooming--cause, weak peg, such as high ring count ring porous hardwood, unnoticed decay, wrong species--conclusion, reject
This can be very true and I agree, however, when the peg was being created through proper riving and/or assessment by an experienced timber wright, it would have never made it into the hands of someone that would try to put it into a frame, it would have been rejected much sooner.

Quote:
3. Splitting--cause, grain runout, flaw in grain--conclusion, reject
Agreed again, but also the same comment about assessment, it should have never been chosen to be a trunnel.

Quote:
4. Splitting--cause, off center hard face hammer blow--conclusion--possible parallel and horizontal shear, reject and strike with a soft face hammer or a mallet
Absolutely agree, this is a reject and the person that is doing the work should be using a striking cap until they develop better technique.

Quote:
So that is where the completely wrong conclusion stems from.
I'm sorry Sir, by no means have you justified this position.

Quote:
Try making an effort to understand the other guy. Here is a link to an identical erectors wrench that I have been using about fifteen years...The wrench is completely handy, hangs on a hammer loop, and is specifically designed for aligning bore holes, sorry it's not traditionally proper. Tomatoes Toe-Mahh-Toes
As a teacher and facilitator of this craft and others, I always try to understand someones position of a topic, but if I feel my experiences and training notes a possible flaw in their methods, I share that. I not only know about Klein tools, I have even facilitated their modification, as Tim suggested tonight.

The issue with you method is that traditional Draw Pins are meant to be driven to their maximum size, that is why they come in different sizes. You are to drive them until they reach that specific terminus, which is just a wee bit shy of the trunnel hole they are placed in. So unless you are drilling 1.125" Trunnel bores, the Klien tool you are using is not correctly being implemented for for true Draw Pin technique. It is not tomatos or Toe-Mahh-Toes. It's apples and oranges.

I'm not at all feeling peevish but you still have not made a solid point about me being in error in anyway. I don't even think we disagree that much. However, I do think I have as much, or maybe more, experience than you, and perhaps it's you that should, "Try making an effort to understand the other guy." Your technique is not flawed per say, but it is not complete or being implemented correctly or as it was intended to be, that's all.

Regards, jay

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 01/25/13 03:26 AM.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: TIMBEAL] #30159 01/25/13 02:33 PM
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Jon Senior Offline
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Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
I don't recall ever seeing mushroomed peg heads. But I have seen clientele drive a peg with a sledge hammer....... the draw was tight..... the peg sharp.... it went in right but was driven out the side of the timber! after making it through the tenon the peg was pushed off alignment. I heard way to much pounding and came to look. Always entertaining to have extra "help".


I resemble that remark! Well... It wasn't a sledge hammer, but I did manage an excessively drawn spline fitted into a narrow (10cm) beam where the peg split the outer face of the beam as a consequence of the angle it took through the spline. No major damage done, but embarassing nonetheless!

I guess this sort of learning is what first builds are all about! :-)

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jon Senior] #30166 01/25/13 04:49 PM
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Hi Jon,

You know one thing, maybe I should call it a "striking surface distortion," because it isn't like the true "mushrooming," like you get on the top of a chisel.

I should also note that we use metal hammers almost exclusively for striking chisels and pegs, as that seem to be the norm in most places I have witnessed, or really hard wood mallets. It would seem about a 60/40 or 70/30 percentage, in favor of metal strikers over wood/leather. I personally have used an antique 750 g (26.5 oz) Japanese Diaku's Hammer (don't know the exact age,) and a 100 plus year old Trow and Holden 1.4 k (3 lb) Carvers Hammer for most of my life in furniture and timber wrighting. We use sledges with pads, when striking a frame or furniture or massive dead-blows. There is a few wood mallets and leather mallets around but they are light in weight and reserved for guests/students that don't have the skill or stamina to swing large traditional metal hammers.

Regards, jay

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30167 01/25/13 05:32 PM
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Steel stickers! Not in my shop. A steel sticker is too hard which will deliver more impact. Impact is absorbed by the struck face and will cause damage.(hence the mushrooming you mentioned that I don't get)
The softer impact of a wooden mallet provides sufficient driving force for wood cutting tools and driving pegs without causing damage to them.
I don't care what the Japanese or anyone else did a 100 years ago, that doesn't make it right.


Life is short so put your heart into something that will last a long time.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Thane O'Dell] #30168 01/25/13 06:24 PM
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Hello Thane,

Quote:
Steel stickers! Not in my shop. A steel sticker is too hard which will deliver more impact.
I'm not sure, but I think you meant "striker," not "sticker," or could you explain "sticker"? The more impact, in the correct hands, with the correct knowledge is the reason hand forged metal "striking" tools have, are and will continue to be the dominate striking tool.

Quote:
Impact is absorbed by the struck face and will cause damage.(hence the mushrooming you mentioned that I don't get)
We try to get "new" folks to use wood/leather and/or some type of striking cap, if they do not have the strength and/or skill to use a heavier tools. Also, I called it "mushroom," for lack of wanting to call it the longer descriptor of "striking surface distortion."

Quote:
The softer impact of a wooden mallet provides sufficient driving force for wood cutting tools and driving pegs without causing damage to them.
I'm not trying to make anyone use tools they do not want to use, but don't also try to make what has been used, what is used and what will probably continue to be used in 60% to 70% of the place in the world that have a wood culture, wrong. It isn't, it is a manner of skill, training and normative culture. Yes your wooden mallet does provide sufficient force to work, but it does not proved efficient force to the work. That is the reason, metal/stone strikers came to be. It does not make what you are doing incorrect, nor what I do either.

Many of my tools are over a hundred years old, (most of them before someone stole them,) and my chisels, (many with original handles,) are not damaged; not that it would be a concern, since you should have the skill to replace them without much effort. Also note, that since a 90 year old Amish Barn Wright taught and gave me my hundred year old mallet, I think he might have been a little wiser than either you or I.

Quote:
I don't care what the Japanese or anyone else did a 100 years ago, that doesn't make it right.
You are correct it doesn't make them right...but it doesn't make them wrong either. Considering that Metallurgist and Wood Working Academics are still trying to unravel the mysteries, and emulate techniques that these Master Crafts people had done a thousand years ago, with out modern technology, should be a little humbling for you and anyone trying to practice this craft. I know I have been trying humbly for 40 years, and when I am next to a "national treasure," (as they are designated,) humble is all there is to be. Diaku, or similar Craftsperson, from the Middle East through out Asia and my own Amish Barn Wright's that tried to squeeze as much as they could into my head, I try to listen...they all use metal strikers most of the time, so according to your post, they are all wrong?

Respectfully, jay

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 01/25/13 06:28 PM.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30170 01/25/13 07:26 PM
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Hello,

Some old pegs taken out of some windows I've been rebuilding. How equivalent to whatever timber frame context you may have in mind I dare not say but shows the deflection and compression involved, with the intact long grain and rectilinear cross section.


And then the set of drift pins I found amongst a lot of other old stuff left here when we moved in. Could even be the very one used to set up the barn here.



The points of the drift pin driven through the mortice hole into the unmarked tenon, when oriented right with the back of the pin on the shoulder side of the hole will give a reliable and consistent indication of where to drill the hole in the tenon. If the pin should be difficult to haul back out of the assembled joint you could put a big spike through the hole there to help out. These are the standard form always used here.

Nothing wrong with using a steel hammer in chisel work, so long as both hammer and chisel are compatible.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: D Wagstaff] #30171 01/25/13 07:52 PM
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Hey Don,

Super Great Stuff!!! Talk about trip back through my own memories...those look just like the Dutch Amish one's I had given to me before they got stolen. I'm still looking for a complete set of toogijzer (draw pins,) you are so lucky to have saved those. If I can find the time, and place, I'm going to make some. I have been thinking about having John make some (John Neeman,) I'm sure he would make great ones. Thank you so much for sharing these.

You are also correct, about there other use as a "bore tell." I miss having them around for that reason as well. They mark the offset perfectly in most cases.

Regards, jay

P.S. Don, from our other discussion, you can find these in the Middle East and Asia too, if I ever get to see a set I will photo them for you... wink

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: bob franzen] #30188 01/27/13 05:27 PM
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Well Jay, I see that you have heard of John Neeman too! I've bought a few of their tools, and have been very happy so far. They do some very nice work and I've been thinking about having them make drift pins all well. They are my go to tool people!

But back to the relevant topic. You mentioned that you use metal hammers for striking your chisels as well as your pegs. I use a small metal sledge for driving pegs. I find that wooden mallets are harder on the peg (more strikes to drive= more chance of damaging the peg). It is also pretty hard on the wooden mallet.

I use a wooden mallet for striking chisels though, in the style used by Chappell. I can see the appeal of using a metal hammer with chisels. Greater weight in a smaller size leading to a more controllable amount of force applied with a minimum of strokes.
How do you avoid premature damage to the chisel handle? Avoiding damage to the handle has always been the rationale for the wooden mallets in what I have seen. I would guess that one would want a relatively soft steel for such a job? Maybe even bronze?
Perhaps avoiding chisel handle damage has more to do with striking technique and attention to detail when making one's chisel handles than choice of striking tool?
I have never really tested out the concept of the metal hammer for chisel work myself, I think I will though. To be quite honest, I was always under the impression that to strike a timber framing chisel with a metal hammer would be such an act of sacrilegious barbarity that the Timber Frame Gods would immediately cast me into a pit of seething condo framers with nail guns! eek I suppose I'll have to rethink that assumption...

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30192 01/28/13 02:36 AM
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I must say that I have been finding this topic extremely interesting. I have been doing draw boring thus far in the style of TIMBEAL, with the heavily tapered peg. I did this because it's what one sees really often with modern draw boring, identified by the space where the peg does not fill the back of the hole.
I had noticed when I have worked on old barns, as was pointed out earlier, that none of those pegs had a heavy taper, just the heavy taper on the last inch or so. Not having a very universal overview of old pegs I just assumed that they were outside the norm.
I really do like the concept of the full sized peg fully engaged in the peg hole, with any adjustment needed made in the tenon hole. That to me, just seems to be a more elegant solution. I'm sure that the draw boring that I have done up to now is adequate in function...but perhaps not ideal.
In view of this thread and the original question, it really seems to me that the heavily tapered peg would lose a significant amount of strength from loss of cross section and loss of parallel grain. The straight grain which is the whole rationale for riving pegs instead of cutting them from sawn stock. I figure that these subtle differences in practice will never make a difference in building longevity in our lifetime, but 200 or 400 years from now the cumulative effects make all the difference. There is a reason that for every ancient building still standing, there are countless others that have fallen in. It's a good reason to look to the survivors for best practice. I'm going to take a good hard look at my pegging practices, do some research, and try out some of the specific techniques that Jay has suggested.
Thanks to all who have been participating on this thread, it has made me rethink my own practice. It's good for young guys like me to see this kind of debate.

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Hylandwoodcraft] #30194 01/28/13 06:15 AM
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Quote:
I use a small metal sledge for driving pegs. I find that wooden mallets are harder on the peg (more strikes to drive= more chance of damaging the peg). It is also pretty hard on the wooden mallet.
He Sean, you got it. This is what I meant by repetitive deformation in a peg, or simply "mushrooming." If you have acquired or been taught the skill, metal striking tools will surpass wood and leather by a great margin. I carve stone, as well as, wood and wooden joints. I have even carved "splayed scarf joints," in granite for foundational elements of a frame, like you would find in Asian. There is a traditional pneumatic stone hammer, (pneumatic tools have been around since the 1850's, one positive high light of the industrial revolution. Note: they are still made in Barre Vermont by the same foundry and black smiths-"Trow and Holden," if you ever contact them, ask for Randy Potter.) that with an adapter you can drive not only timber framing chisels of all types, but pegs as well.

I believe most folks should use softer/lighter wood and leather mallets for their chisels, if I have lead folks to believe other wise I am sorry. If you do not have the training, skill, technique, proper hammer, and strength, a metal striking tool used all day long to cut joints will cause you and the tools you strike harm. I have had some ambitious students try to use both my hand hammer and my pneumatic, and a few have ended up at the doctors for repetitive stress fractures. I didn't start off using a three pound hammer to strike a chisel. That took years of conditioning, practice and guidance. If you start off with a nice 16 to 26 oz Japanese hammer, you would probably be fine. Just as an odd note, stone carvers take to timber framing better than the other way around. It has often made me think that we should get all young craft folk started with stone then move them to wood.

Quote:
I would guess that one would want a relatively soft steel for such a job? Maybe even bronze?
Excellent observation, they make bronze hammers for this purpose but they do not hold up as well as a hand forged metal hammer. In some cases you can damage a chisel handle. Most of mine last several years to a decade, but my "favorites," often get used up about every 1.5 years. Then I simply make a new handle, it isn't that hard. If you work a lot and keep really sharp tools, you will wear chisels out quick. I can go through some gouges in under three years.

Quote:
Perhaps avoiding chisel handle damage has more to do with striking technique and attention to detail when making one's chisel handles than choice of striking tool?
Also well said!!! I believe many of our ancient forbears of this craft cringe and/or laugh hysterically at our fumbling and follies. Such a simple thing as using the correct technique and tool, can make your work so much easier.

I am really glad you have taken something away from this discussion. It is all about the handing down of linage knowledge and rediscovery of what has been almost been lost.

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 01/28/13 06:17 AM.
Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: Hylandwoodcraft] #30195 01/28/13 01:22 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Originally Posted By: Hylandwoodcraft
I must say that I have been finding this topic extremely interesting. I have been doing draw boring thus far in the style of TIMBEAL, with the heavily tapered peg.


This corner is getting cramped. The vast majority of my pegs are not heavily tapered. Yes, they taper heavily for the first 1/3 of the peg the other 2/3 has a slight taper. They are unlike the spruce full one inch pegs found in most of the historic fabric of my surroundings. The "odd" aspect is how come I don't use the old style pegs I find in the local building, I not saying they were odd, I am odd. Also note in my video at around 2:20 you can see what my pegs look like and how they are shaped and to what extent the taper is present, and note C's comment "thats not very tapered".

I have no fear about my pegging, tradition or not, I am setting a tradition. The down fall of my structures will be water, I know this to be fact.

I use a very light wooden hammer for chisel work, which I try to keep to a minimum, actually the corner chisel is my most struck implement. On some tough stuff, knots or bad grain I will tap a chisel. The slick is far more efficient in most cases and the axe and adze in others. I don't strike with the back of my axe, as a practice, it has happened, though.

When it comes to driving pegs, I use what is at hand, huge 10" commander, my light finish hammer, small sledge, bigger sledge, the odd piece of blocking, I don't recall if I have taken to rocks that I recall.

Re: Strength of tapered pegs [Re: TIMBEAL] #30199 01/29/13 01:18 AM
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TIMBEAL, sorry for cramping the corner. I can't and shouldn't make generalizations about your work, since I have never even seen it in person. I didn't mean that in a personal way, just trying to make a description of pegging style.
In one way or another we're all creating tradition. Tradition is never static and it's never monolithic.

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