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Kreuzaxt #30273 02/10/13 04:25 PM
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D Wagstaff Offline OP
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Hello,

Because my use of axes in woodworking runs wide and not deep and also in an effort to limit the tools I am using in some work at the moment only to axes I went ahead and got the kreuzaxt for morticing. Finding any kind of written information or instruction hard to come by so thought I would raise it here on this forum. Does anyone have experience with this tool also known as twybil?

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Last edited by D Wagstaff; 02/10/13 04:28 PM.
Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: D Wagstaff] #30274 02/10/13 05:41 PM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Hello Don,

Haven't used one in a long time. Use to own 3 or 4 of them. When I was apprenticed, I saw them often, (I did most of the sharpening for everyone.) Some folks really liked them, it seemed to be a personal preference, perhaps from who trained them? I used versions of this tool, "fencers ax," for a number of years quite extensively. It was in this same family of axes, one looked more like an adz with very slight swoop, the other a true chisel.

I agree, you don't see much written about them, I have even done some searches in French and German with limited results.

Regards,

jay

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 02/10/13 05:42 PM.
Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30275 02/11/13 06:59 AM
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D Wagstaff Offline OP
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Then you can do better than this Jay. Most critical to begin is the good working height to set up the timbers and then onto physical posturing, technique and method. I am sure these would have been standardized particularly in this case where the tool has only specialized application.

Don

Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: D Wagstaff] #30276 02/11/13 05:48 PM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Hi Don,

Quote:
you can do better than this
Not really.

I can do many different hewing styles, and know/have used many of the different tools, from axes to Japanese "chouna," but I'm betting you have more experience behind a family of regionally significant types.

When I teach students we cover brief histories, I answer their questions the best I can, but when it comes to how to technique, method and posture, I tell them what I was taught.

"ask the tool," it will teach you more than me.

I weight almost 90 k (200 lb) and stand 1930 mm (6'4") with boots on, so the way I would use a tool is completely different than the way a much smaller person, with less strength would or could, safely. Some of my stone carving hammers can actually cause bones to break, just because a students arms aren't conditioned to there repeated use. Hewing tools can often be the same way.

The times I used a "mortise ax," was pretty strait forward in application. Stay inside the lines and "chop." I found in time I could do it quicker with my large carving gouges as quick or quicker, than with the ax.

So many of these tools are used in different fashions, depending on the linage and mentorship history. For example, I almost always use a draw knife with the "bevel side down," (except for some fine work,) which is the way I was taught and have found in text as well, while most folks learn to use them "bevel side up."

Regards, jay


Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 02/11/13 05:50 PM.
Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: Jay White Cloud] #30278 02/11/13 07:17 PM
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Jon Senior Offline
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Far from a complete reference, but there is a small entry on the Charpentiers d'Europe et d'ailleurs site put in place by the Ministère de la Culture et Communication in France.

English version:
http://www.en.charpentiers.culture.fr/node/628
French version:
http://www.charpentiers.culture.fr/lesoutils/diversiteregionale/diversitedeshachesequarrir/piochond%E2%80%99alsacehautrhin

The English version describes it as a single bevel, while the French version claims double bevel. I think they're referring to cutting edges, but perhaps you can shed some light on it with your tool.

The mortising end of the full Bisaïgue (Can't remember it's name in German off-hand. I did find it before.) looks similar to the mortising end of the Kreuzaxt. The difference is that the Kreuzaxt is used in a striking motion, while the bisaigue is pushed from the shoulder.

Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: Jon Senior] #30281 02/12/13 09:44 AM
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Hi Jon,

Now that you bring up bisaiguë it strikes me that while I have seen everything from 18th century engravings to youtube videos showing this tool being used, not once has the chopping end been shown in action, always the pairing end only.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: D Wagstaff] #30282 02/12/13 06:33 PM
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Jon Senior Offline
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This is true. I suspect that in modern videos, the basic clearing work is done with smaller tools, either axes, or mortising chisels and the Bisaiguë is kept for finishing work (I have a demi-bisaiguë or Pontache) which consists of just the paring end. I've seen lots of videos of them being used and there's a wider range of new models available which speaks to the chopping end of the bisaiguë being more of a relic.

I would suspect that the removal of lots of material is more easily done with an axe or mortising chisel. Being able to get some weight behind the paring end is really useful, but I think you may need that striking force of a swung axe to really clear the chips.

Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: Jon Senior] #30285 02/13/13 12:06 AM
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Craig Roost Offline
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Is it possible that the "chopping end" is actually used to scoop the chips out of a deep mortise? I know that's what I would use it for...

Rooster


Yah-fur-sur, You-betcha, Don't-cha-know!
Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: Craig Roost] #30290 02/13/13 10:12 PM
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Jon Senior Offline
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OK. Taken from the following:
http://books.google.fr/books?id=7SlKAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA43&lpg=PA43&dq=bisaigu%C3%AB&source=bl&ots=QZe2bTSAGw&sig=idUE7Kd27OXIFgC-UEjSwA7Dpnk&hl=fr&sa=X&ei=R4saUdOFCMWAhQea0oDgBQ&ved=0CEwQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=bisaigu%C3%AB&f=false

Which is a book about carpentry written in 1857. I've included the original text for those that can read french. The translation is mine. Comments in [] are my explanations.

Quote:
"Enfin si le charpentier se sert du bédane pour faire quelque entaille creuse comme celle d'une mortaise, le biseau doit se trouver du coté du copeau qu'il veut enlever, et le tranchant doit être perpendiculaire au fil du bois. Pour enlever le copeau après la première incision, il faut en faire une nouvelle qui détermine sa longueur et le soulève par l'effet du glissement du tranchant sur son biseau, de la même manière qu'avec le bédàne ordinaire.

On voit que la bisaigue tient lieu à la fois du ciseau et du bédàne, et même du maillet; son poids et l'impulsion qu'on lui donne remplacent la percussion; et comme le bois qu'on travaille est peu élevé sur le sol, la longueur de l'outil fait que le charpentier n'a pas besion de se baisser. Ceux qui n'ont pas l'habitude de se servir de cet outil, sont privaés de cet avantage, ils sont bligés de se courber et même de se mettre à genous, ou de s'asseoir sur les pièces pour agir avec le ciseau et le bédàne ordinaires en s'aideant du maillet, qui exige un mouvement du bras droit, très fatiguant."


Quote:
If the carpenter uses the mortising chisel ["bédàne" is a mortising chisel, "ciseau" is a paring chisel] to make a hole like that of a mortise, the bevel must be where the chips will be lifted out [ie if making a mortise in the side facing up, the bevel would be up], and the cutting edge must be perpendicular to the grain of the wood. To lift out the chips from the first cut, he must make a second cut which will determine their length, and lift them out from the effect of pushing the bevel through, in the same way as an ordinary mortising chisel.

We see that the bisaiguë works as both a mortising and paring chisel, and even as a mallet; it's weight and the impulse that one gives it replaces the percussion; and since the wood that on works is not raised far from the ground, the length of the tool means that the carpenter has no need to lower himself. Those who do not have the habit of working with this tool, are deprived of this advantage, they are obliged to bend and even to kneel, or to sit on the pieces to work with the ordinary paring and mortising chisels, using a mallet which requires movement of the right arm, very tiring.


This description suggests that the bisaiguë is actually used as a mortising tool and not just for chip clearance, and also that it is used with a pushing action and not a chopping one (pushed, not thrown).

This user on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/user/phojoo) has a large number of videos featuring traditional french carpentry techniques, and while I've not trawled through all of them, the demonstrated uses of the bisaiguë are all using the paring end, either for tidying up mortises, or in some cases, planing a complete surface.

I'll soon be presenting my candidature for a 2 year apprenticeship in carpentry here. If I get the place, I'll be sure to quiz all and sundry about this weird tool. Clearly we've deviated somewhat from Don's original post. Apologies for the derail.

P.S. bisaiguë comes from bi-aigué, meaning literally twin-beveled.

Re: Kreuzaxt [Re: Jon Senior] #30293 02/14/13 09:28 AM
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D Wagstaff Offline OP
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Hello,

The part about the height at which the french carpenter works will shed a good light on the bisaiguë. They are working down low and so a kreuzaxt would be ill-suited and has been adapted. German carpenters are working at a higher level around the height of the thigh.
The principle of chopping the mortice is unchanging regardless of the tool used within this category - bisaiguë, kreuazxt, stemmeisen - a vertical cut to sever the long grain, and then ejecting the chip. The difficulty to be grasped is in the case of the freehand action of both bisaiguë and kreuzaxt. I believe there must be some guidance mechanism involved even to the extend of pre-wasting the bulk of the material from the mortice opening.

Jon, first of all I wish you success with your application. Regarding the carpenter highlighted, I am skeptical that he knows anything.

Greetings,

Don Wagstaff

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