I am Andy. I am new to this site as of 10 minutes ago. I teach chemistry, work in the native flower industry, turn vases on a somewhat professional level, work as a fishing guide (cane rod aficionado), and lastly, am a timber frame junkie. Bed time stories are told by Jack Sobon in his 6 part PDFseries. I was due to be born in late October, 1875. I was 98 years late. I am 39 with no kids, 5 dogs (two english setters and three afghan hounds), and I like anything as long as it's hard. I also tend to ramble, which why most of you will get bored reading this and two of you might respond.

I am building my second timber frame. I inherited a pair of framing chisels, a 4" slick, a 1" corner chisel, and the most useless mallet every created from my fishing mentor when he went up to the big woods in the sky. In his honor, I build the nicest wood shed (10 x 20 three bent, two bay) this side of the Mississippi. I loved it. It was made of 4x4 red oak (small, but free), and has done its job VERY well. It had a half lapped and bladed scarf with a key. I notched the frame in my basement. I have since made nicer mallets.

As a prairie seed nut and lathe geek, I need some more space to clean seed and turn. I am am planning to build frame Mark II to get Alice, my lathe out of the house, so I can continue being married...happily that is. It will be an 18 x 24, three bent, two bay, with the same plan as before with a few changes. First and foremost, 8x8 white oak. I want to carry the 18' span, which I will do with 8x10s with 1" housing into the posts. I will brace everything with 4x6s also housed. The posts will be 14', so I can have a loft with a stub wall capable of holding my roughed out vessels from my lathe. The roof will be 3x7 white oak rafters, birdsmouthed in with enough overhang to make me happy. I have not yet decided on which scarf to use (suggestions). I will probably add on, and give Alice a platform with a wood floor and concrete pad underneath in her own room eventually...with lots of light.

So...to why I am here and my question:

I need a foundation. I am in Southern MN and we see frost. Plenty of it. The bid on an ICF form foundation (like my house) was $6500. It would have been 4' deep on a 24" footing, and that included a 4" concrete floor. It would have had a 6" stub wall I could have fastened the posts to a green treated plate. I can spend that, but I would like to be cheaper. Another option would be 6 large concrete pillars, with an 8" x 8" sill and a floating concrete floor. Of course I would love a wooden floor (bowl gouges take a beating on concrete). I plan to heat it all, and if I go with concrete I will run PEX underneath. I guess I am looking for a simple idea that is reasonably priced, will not cause my building to shift, and will get the job done with a nice solid floor I can have my lathe, band saw, table saw, hammer mill, and fanning mill on. Any ideas?

Secondly...the loft floor. I am planning on a dovetailed 4x6 centered to keep things in line and using 3x7s that will be butt cogged and pinned for the remainder of support. I may also thrown in dormer, but then I'd use bigger rafters.

The local Amish mill will let me build it on their ground on a pair of log skids set waist height, so I can notch a beam and roll it down the line and then continue. I will assemble the bents there and haul them here with horse (3 miles) to save time. I am hoping I can cut the frame on nights and weekends by the end of May. I will do most of this solo because my friends either A) like toys with engine and just don't get it, or B) have their own eclecticisms to tend to.

Any and all help is appreciated.

Warmest Regards;

Andrew James

Hi Andy, Floating, slab insulated well under and all around, and don't forget pex tubing tied to rebar grid.

Or rebel trench, drained well, with concrete beam on grade, Full timber foundation. I applied 3 inches of foam to mine, strapped with 1-1/2"x2" straps, installed pex and placed concrete into the bays. I will apply a narrow spruce floor over the top.

I wholeheartedly second Tim's recommendations. Alaskan slabs (aka FPSF) are prescriptive in the code now as well. It sounds like a cool project. Those ties are gonna be HEAVY.

Nice. Never heard of an Alaskan slab before. I shall look deeply into it.

Yes, the ties will be quite heavy. An 18' 8"x10" WO beam weighs about $700# green. Yikes. But alas, it was Newton who said, "Give me a big enough lever and I shall move the earth". He also believed in Alchemy and was in general nuts. I live square in an Amish sect. If I have the bents ready, the Amish will just show up and pop the structure up. I won't have to ask...they have amish radar of sorts. They'll also probably bring chickens for lunch. The site is wooded and I'll have a few trees to help me out, and I plan on a gin pole too. Of course they'd buy an air nailer and a compressor before they'd chisel a frame. And if they did chisel (one guy locally does), all scarfs would be half lapped on a post. My sentimental side cringes at the thought. "Functional" and "pretty" are synonyms in my somewhat twisted backwoods dictionary.

I'm currently trying to get enough housework done (read: turn a zillion vases from the burl pile out front) so that I can chisel and not feel guilty about neglecting the lathe or let pretty wood rot. Back to the salt mine....

I will see what I can dig up regarding the monolith.

Regards;

AJS

Speaking of Amish..
Went down to Heuvelton NY today to order some timber from the Amish.
Noah told me he would "write" me when my order was ready. Gave me a chuckle on the way home.
Haven't received a hand written letter since probably the 70's. I'm really looking forward to his.
Kinda cool that.

Surprising...some Amish here write, but any kid over 15, whose not yet become an official church member owns a cell phone. They charge them on their alternators they use for their engines that run the household PTO. Interesting set of rules: Diesel PTO = ok. Gas = not ok. Gas for engine that pumps water = ok. Gas for circular mill (buzz saw) for cutting firewood = ok. Gas for Chainsaw to cut firewood = not ok. Brown shoes, not ok....black ones = ok. I could go on and on. LED for headlamp to get firewood = ok....for buggies to be safe, not ok. ARGH. Then again, I suppose in ways, we "English" aren't a lot better.

Oh...and I checked into a Monolithic slab here in SE MN. You'd have thought I was asking to marry their son. They thought I was nuts. Gonna be hard to find someone to do it. But, in talking today with another fellow, I got a lead on someone who thinks that way.

Next question I suppose is if I should use a green treated base, or the same white oak. And how would I fasten the base to the slab? Really tall J-bolts? Very (read: VERY) careful placement of said bolts? And do I lap the base, or Scarf it? Suddenly the projects gets more complicated again.

Thanks.

White oak is rot resistant, so either that or PT. Or PT under something else. I'd use strap type anchors from Simpson. They're nailed to the forms before the pour at the post locations.

Black Locust is often the only species approved in lieu of pressure treated, and white oak is generally not placed in that category. Don't ask the reasons, that is just the way it is. Black Locust is the only non-treated wood approved here for direct contact with concrete. Personally, I tend to put 2X PT underneath any wood in order to satisfy the code. Often times the PT is anchored to the foundations as per code, even though the Plates will just sit on top of it. Silly, but it makes the inspector happy so that's how we do it.

We always say the only purpose for anchor bolts is that if a Tornado comes through, at least you will still have plates attached to the foundation...


As for the comment about the Amish,
Let me just say, a lot of times there are a great deal of specifics to the standards that have developped over the last 3 centuries, in reaction to the changing world around them. What you have to realize is that there has to be a line somewhere, and unless you understand in detail how that line was drawn it is going to seem arbitrary.

I shouldn't say this.... but this past summer I planted a couple locust trees at my house, grown from seed, most likely I won't see them used as sills but someone might.

I do bolt down heavy sill, just use regular J-bolts in the concrete, I use the long nuts for threaded rod to extend a bolt the the surface of the sill, simple layout same as you would do for the sills.

Kind of funny... I have often found myself trying to make sure I get a fasten into the pt sill to tie the whole building down. On full length boards they are connected to the sill and top plate. Glad I don't live in a tornado ally or have poisonous snakes in the woods.

Ok....on to other questions....I have decided to do the monolithic slab ($3500 bid vs $7600 on the latest). They will give me a 3 or 4" concrete sill I can do whatever I want with. I'll probably opt for a 3" WO sill atop that, bolted to it and tenon my post into that. On my last frame, I used 2' really wide angle brackets to attach it to the foundation (rail ties)...seems to me the stub tenons on plates/sills aren't normally pinned though...mass takes care of it?

Anyway...to another question...and ramble.

I am planning on 8x8 posts and an 8x10 horizontal beam. Braces will shorten the free span to about 11 ft or thereabouts. I went to the mill yesterday and talked shop and saw what an 8x10 looks like in person. And then began to question it all. Will a 7x10 or 7x9 beam work just as well and then go for 7" posts? Or shall I just stick with it even if its overkill? 8x8 posts are MASSIVE from a wood shop perspective. Of course chopping down things will also save me a bit of money. Incidentally, the entire lumber bid for this (the fun part, not the stick built innards for insulation unless someone has a good alternative) will be well under 2K. WO will be between $.50 and $.65 per bd ft cut depending on the length...apparently the nicer stuff I'll need for the 18' beam will run a bit more ($.65), whereas the 4x6 bracing and whatnot will be cheaper. I suspect the 3x7 rafters will be in between. I will fill in with some red elm (I plan to sticker it and have it set a bit before working with it as it likes to move...that wood is free though from my back yard). How does this price fare geographically with what you pay? I live in WO country...Caledonia (MN) Stave is right nearby, and the oak for my project will come from Northern Iowa.

Also, the only frame I ever built was with 4x4 RO. It moved a bit, but was fun and easy because it was small dimension lumber and meant to keep firewood dry albeit 8x22 three bent, two bay dry. Or course this will be more work, but from a mental standpoint, I have done it all before. Point being....how does one work with timber if she starts to move? Fast? And how important is it that the center of the tree is balls on center. Reuben guaranteed me there'd be no centers out of sides, but how about a bit of diagonal as the trees aren't perfect? I plan to assemble the bents at the mill where I am building it, and then transport them to my place three miles a way by horse so as to avoid DOT Issues. Fun, easy, Percherons are nice.

Lastly....who here is a pro who'd look over my plan just for looksies sake? I did it on sketchup, and have pulled each member out for dimensioning. I think this ought to do as a "working" drawing.

Thanks and again, sorry for the ramble.


AJS

I think that your timbers are certainly bigger than they need to be. Especially in W.Oak I would consider going down in size a bit. Without seeing the design, I would think that 7x7 and 7x9 should work. I would say you are getting a great price on W. Oak. I wish I could get it for that price!
Ideally you want the center as close to centered as possible. But as long as you don't have really crooked trees( ie centers out the sides) you'll be fine. I doubt this stuff will move as much as the small dimension R Oak you used last time. Still, the sooner you raise after milling the better.
Just out of curiosity, why assemble the bents away from the site? It sounds like it would complicate transport and loading/ unloading.
It sounds like a fun project!

I am a crew of one. Of course once I am raising, I can get as much help as I'd like. But...I figured if I am where I build them (the mill), and I have to test fit them once they are cut, I might as well just grab the guy with the end loader, wrap a nylon strap around the bent and set it to the side. At 18 x 14, they aren't huge. Then, when all three bents are done, I will flag the same loader operator down (he can't hide well on one acre in a big yellow machine surrounded by horses and dudes with straw hats) and have him lift the bents onto an appropriately sized wagon with a few percherons. My place is literally three miles away...why un-assemble and pry apart only to put it back together over the hill? Of course if I was hauling them 30 miles, I'd do otherwise. Likewise, if there's a logging truck there that day, I may use it.

Back to the drawing board on size maybe? I just don't want a post in the middle. I wish I could get a genuine working print, if for no other reason than it would be fun.

Hi AJ I was thinking more about your building, and should say that your timber size will be very much determined by what you need to best accommodate the joinery. Without knowing how you plan to layout the joints, I can guess that you may want to size the timbers the larger size for joinery purposes. If you are planning to dovetail your floor joists the larger timber would probably be good. If you get some drawings together it would be great to see them.

I think you must be psychic. Not 30 seconds ago, I was in sketchup, thinking how it'd be nice to run the frame by someone who has more than the paltry experience I do. Then I remembered a post here I stumbled on a while ago, where someone offered to take a gander and give an opinion...Then I saw your post on my original post half by accident. Kinda spooky.

Oddly enough, I'd just like to someone whose done plenty to ask a few questions to. Give me a number and an email, I will send the frame in sketchup, and follow up with a genuine call.

Thanks a mint.

Hi Andy,

I am late replying, but I just found this link while researching the same topic. Your project sounds very interesting. Please post pictures when you get started. [url=http://www.toolbase.org/PDF/DesignGuides/revisedFPSFguide.pdf][/url]

Its a very good link with detailed explanations on Alaskan slabs. A friend built his garage using an Alaskan slab in Quebec City, its been many years and the garage has not moved at all.

Personally, I am debating if I will go ahead and build a workshop / garage with the slab or wait and build my cabin with a walkout basement that will be used as a workshop in the summer and garage in the winter. My wife wants a pottery workshop, I want a wood working workshop and we store our car in my uncles barn in the winter. He is getting old, we may need to store our car in the workshop in the future. What makes things a bit complicated is the fact that I am messy and my wife is supper clean, so sharing a workshop will be an issue.

Please keep us posted on your progress.

Serge