looks great Tim, glad to see these methods being put to use.

I think you would find that if you supported both ends, deflection would disappear entirely. The floors in Switzerland and Schwarzwald too git a lot of stiffness by being secured around the whole perimeter, and the wedgind. I think your screws will compensate for the wedging, but end support i bet would do a lot.

Yes that's a flag, looks like the Swiss flag. i'm surprised to see the Swiss Flag without the canton flag as well. maybe this was erected around August first which is the national holiday

the Bush is the top of a spruce tree or maybe a small spruce.

Also pay close attention to the clothes that the carpenters are wearing. Notice especially, they are NOT wearing the apparrel of the so-called 'Zimmerleute' or 'Geselle', Journeymen Carpenters and apprentices. Not even the master carpenter who is the one in front on the peak. These are not guild-affiliated carpenters, but farmers and rural workers. Guilds were not very important to rural practices. These guys are just wearing what would have been everyday farmers' clothing at that point in time.

Most of the times, the farmers would have built these houses with the experience of seasoned craftsman. The master may have traveled from another village, someone who was experienced in this work and knew how to lay out and design the frame. But he usually wasn't (unless the owner was very wealthy) associated with any type of guild. It's amazing the depth of skill and knowledge that was possessed by farmers with no formal training at all.

In many regions, this is actually still how it is done. The carpenters aren't always accredited, just learned it by tradition.

I may try supporting the other two edges to see if there is a difference. Right now it is great.

Interesting are your comments on the lack of guilds, but at the same time the high quality of the workmanship present in the photo, from the common folk.

Yes it is remarkable in some ways,
but if you think about it, why should a guild be considered necessary?

This certainly explains the great deal of variation in framing methods from village to village in the old days too, as it was a local 'folk craft'

Jay said this over on another tread, I'll respond here to keep the topic of that thread from wondering off, since it's an important subject.



Jay,
I know about the reality of farmers, and how they are not dumb, that's why I put it in quotation marks. It was a reflection of common thought, not of reality -irony. Im a farmer. the Bähler family has been farmers literally for thousands of years, so I know a thing or two about farming culture.

As to that barn, there were no 'apprenticed' carpenters as such likely invloved in the project. You'd be able to tell right away in the picture, as in Switzerland at the time any apprentice would have worn the distinctive clothes marking his connection to a guild, and any journeyman or master would have proudly worn that status, especially for something as rare and important as photograph, and definitely during the
'Aufrichtefest' which is what is here pictured.

The master may have built such a structure before,, as might a few of the others -there may have even been one or two itinerant carpenters in the mix -but if so, none of them were a part of any formal program. They learned by tradition. By trade, they were probably farmers. This is around the time period in Switzerland where the concept of a professional carpentry shop would have just begun to rise in the villages. And where this picture was taken is from a particularly isolated (geographically) region.

As for the Amish,
There is no formal training there. At all. Never. And there never will be. In the Amish culture, they (we, actually,) look down on those who have formal training because they tend to think they are better than those who don't.
If you would require certification, I would tell you 90% of the people I know would be right out of the business.
Now I understand you have some experience with these people, but I'll just be plain and say I have more. About 500 years more. That's my heritage. I'm Amish-Mennonite, I have deep connections with the Old Order, and I know how they do things. So i can't support mandatory certifications or training systems, because it would destroy my own culture.

Another topic of interest is how we approach the cutting of our frames and timbers. I see a lot of timber framers doing their work with saws and chisels and the well known slick, which many consider an absolute necessity in the craft.

I have never owned a slick, I don't think I probably ever will

A few cultures have much different methods. In Switzerland, Austria, and much of central Europe the chisel takes a back seat, finding use mostly as a cleanup and paring tool -even then to a much more limited extent than most are familiar with in this country. Instead of the saw and chisel, joints are cut out with the axe an adze. Having seen this done, I will say the axe in the hands of a skilled craftsman is a wonderful tool, much faster than the chisel, but harder to master. A couple of different axes is all you need in your toolbox, and they can replace a broad range of tools.

It's just interesting to see the different methods.


As to to the original topic of what methods persisted I have thought about this in regards to the recent discussion on apprenticeship and training.
There were many people that moved to this country from Germany, Austria, and Switzerland -far more so than came from England. So we might wonder, why did English methods prevail? Well I think the answer is found in the training programs. The parts of the German speaking countries these people came from were rural and isolated. The guild system was not present. Carpenters, then, learned from their fathers, or their uncles, or their neighbors. When they came to America, often times they hired the established craftsmen, and their children learned from them.

I don't have a drop of alphabet soup in front or back of my name. I have seen silly mistakes from people with said soup. I say welcome to the stupid club.

Just because a culture or specific person does or doesn't use a certain tool does not mean it is useless. I love my axes and adzes, and my slick too. If I were to be limited to only one tool it would be a standard axe.

Interesting how this is folding in with the guild discussion.

For me the one tool is a 1 1/2 chisel. After that it's the $15 single bevel Stanley hatchet I found at a garage sale. Then the slick. I do find that the more mature I get as a carpenter the fewer tools I use. One of the great things about the world now is it is so much easier to learn about the ways other cultures do things. My goal has always been to find and learn the most efficient method for me. I fully realize that the guy or gal at the other end of the timber may have a completely different and equally viable approach.

Thanks Tim and Les for coming on

Like Tim, I don't have a degree or credential to my name, other than the fact that I have worked and made a study out of my own life.

Does that make me less valuable than the carpenter who has been through a 3 year apprenticeship program?

If I were to pick one tool, it would depend on the job I am doing. If I am doing a frame, it would be my narrow-bitted axe. For a log building, my Gransfors.

Right now I am designing a project that will have a lot of ornate profiling and carving on the timbers, this will be an adventure in hand tool carpentry and I am looking forward to starting on the work.