Thanks for that correction DL, as I knew it was found through out Germanic, and Easter European systems of timber framing, and of course in ancient far East. I will have to keep looking as I could swear I read reference to it by Phelps??? within the Swiss modalities.

Hi DL & J C.

Please note that I used the term "Dragon Tie" and not "Dragon Beam"



Dragon beams are employed when a timber-framed building is jettied on two sides. This is a key building component into which the floor joists are jointed.

Dragon ties run from the top of the wall plate to the tie beam as shown further above.

JC,

It's Phleps and not Phelps.

DL,

I did not say "our" dislike of open frames I said "my" dislike. The reason for this is very simple - "disproportionate collapse" (think Ronan's point) which has been discussed many times on this forum and so rather than me expand on this topic I wonder if Katie Hill PE or Greg Mullen PE would care to chip in and give the North American engineering view on this design issue.

Ken Hume P.Eng.

Hi,

I forgot to add these pics that show much more clearly just exactly how a Dragon Tie is employed. It's interesting that the present day occupants of this 1365 cottage appear to have found a new use for this structural element



whereas a previous occupant obviously took an extreme dislike to one of the others in the same room.



Ken

Ken,
Wasn't sure entirely what you meant by dragon tie, but obviously it is not the dragon beam as seen on jetties or hips. Thanks for the clarification.

Hello Ken,

Thanks for the comment (and correction Phleps vx Phelps.)

There is no doubt that the internal infill walls add structural integrity to a timber frame home over a barn, but I believe the most barns design for this, would you agree.

I would love to read what Ronan has written about this topic, as I recall the name but do not remember reading anything by them. Can you give a link or ref.

On the topic of "dragon beams" Ken, perhaps I have made an error. If you just have the horizontal brace (dragon tie) and that element is part of the general design matrix of the frame, like you find in Japan, Germany and else where, does it cease being a dragon tie? Also, do you know what this "horizontal tie" is called in German and French architecture, and does it still contain the colloquial relationship to "dragon"?

thanks Ken, great discussion, and your photo library is wonderful.

As I understand it, 'Dragon' comes from the German term for this, Träger, or Trägbalken -carrying beam. This would refer to the angled beam in a hip or projected frame that carries the intersecting beam ends and strengthens this matrix

In south Germany and Switzerland, we generally would not use this type of assembly, so as such I am not overly familiar with it other than to know it exists.

I am still looking DL, but can not find it yet???

Dragon is "Drachen" in german, and if I recall was part of the word referring to this type of beam (Strahl or Trager.) I am wondering now if it was a German text, explaining this fashion of beam work in English and French architecture and how it relates to the German and Swiss forms...I just can remember the term they used?

I understand "trager" to mean carrie beam, or just beam, while "tragbalken" to mean joist, stringer, or ceiling beam.

Jay,

I reviewed the most likely places to find this type of joint -castle framing. The roofs have castles have full hip or pyramid roofs, and in many locations these are the places you will find the dragon beam. I do not find this...



Strahl in use in construction must be some obscure reference, this is not a usual word, and your use here confuses me.

As it realates to German and Swiss forms,

again, it doesn't. It may be found here and there, but if so finds its way here from French sources and is not an important part of the German or Swiss traditions.

That is a good suggestion DL, perhaps it was in reference to castle roofs.

I misused the word "strahl" which would mean something like "a beam of light," not a beam of wood. What I meant to write write above was, (Balken or Trager) not "strahl," sorry for that confusion.

Mostly just Balken, with various adjectives tacked onto it to describe its function

Deckenbalken, Bundbalken, Ankorbalken, Kehlbalken, etc.

The closest sounding thing I can think of in terms of sound to 'Dragonbeam' would be 'Tragbalken' which is a beam that runs under another to carry it, like a floor support beams upon which the joists are lodged.