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#32995 - 06/04/15 03:19 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jim Rogers Offline

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Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1607
Loc: Georgetown, MA, USA
You can scarf posts as well.
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#32996 - 06/04/15 03:31 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jay White Cloud Offline
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Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
I always tend to fall to "Occam's razor" when thinking about such constraints on a project between material resources (usually cost vs length thing 80% of the time) and what a client wants vs can afford.

So...in this case, we have isle post that are beyond the scope of the selected sawyer. That means either:

Chainsaw mill these posts from longer bolts (logs) yourself...

or

Employ a long structural splicing joint (aka scarf) that is well and properly "glued and clamped" with an accepted/approved structural adhesive like "PL Premium" or Epoxy. Employ the correct joint like:

kai-no-kuchitsugi (&#35997;&#12398;&#21475;&#32153;) (Shell Mouth Joint or "clam shaped splice") This joint (kainokuchitsugi) is commonly used historically in Japan for major columns/posts without advises, and is probably the better choice of the two offered.

isukatsugi (&#12356;&#12377;&#12363;&#32153;) ( halved rabbeted (oblique) scarf joint or "stork's bill scarf") if employed for a post must be in one of the "housed forms," of the joint like, sumikiri isukatsugi (&#38533;&#20999;&#12356;&#12377;&#12363;&#32153;.)

My 2 at this point...

PLEASE NOTE THAT THE "FUNNY NUMBERS" ARE THE KANJI CODE FOR THE NAMES IN JAPANESE IF ANYONE CARES TO DO A PROPER GOOGLE SEARCH...JUST CUT AND PASTE...



Edited by Jay White Cloud (06/04/15 03:34 PM)
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#32997 - 06/04/15 07:53 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
timberframe Offline
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Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Canada

Hmmmm, so I think I'll push harder on getting some tall timbers from another source, but if that doesn't work, I may go back to the Dutch barn design and consider scarfing the posts. They're 10x10 by the way. Where would you put the scarf? My instinct would say about the anchor beam.

Jay, do you have any images of the scarfs you're referring to? I can't seem to figure out the Kanji code stuff....

Thanks again,
B

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#32998 - 06/04/15 08:31 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
"&#35997;&#12398;&#21475;&#32153;"

Just take the above numbers in quotes and paste them into a google search then hit the image button. That will lead you to everything you want and feel free to email me if you have more questions.

Regards,

j
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#32999 - 06/04/15 09:03 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
timberframe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Canada
OK, that's what I did, but I was expecting something more specific, but that's still helpful, thank you.
So any scarf work I've done has been with purlins or plates, and for repairing rotten post bottoms with little actual load. I guess I wasn't thinking of employing them in new construction, but I guess if it's considered acceptable, then it's just a little more work. The posts are 10x10, so there should be lots of meat there to work with. The one in this image, is one of the more common one I'm seeing, but it looks short.

http://userdisk.webry.biglobe.ne.jp/003/326/60/N000/000/001/123842267865816317879.jpg

B


Edited by timberframe (06/04/15 09:04 PM)

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#33000 - 06/04/15 09:26 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
If you "dig into" the info linked to the "kanji" you can even find video of many of them being cut (though much of it is in Japanese or even Korean.) These two cultures have a much larger array of "splicing joints" and applications for them than we probably find anywhere else in the world.

They (and I) even carve them in stone for the base of post where they form both the post bottom and the plinth as one unit. Her is a link to some examples:

https://www.pinterest.com/tosatomo/stone-joints/

Feel free to email or call...the project sounds exciting.

Regards,

j
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#33001 - 06/04/15 10:07 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
timberframe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Canada

Wow, that's amazing stuff. A scarf joint in stone....whoda thunk? Thanks for the link! I'm a furniture maker and I've seen some amazing Japanese joinery, not surprised it's similar with TF!

I'm excited about the project for a number of reasons. It will be my first TF project out of my new shop, and in NB where I'll be moving to. Nice to have a client before I even move there! Also, I've never done anything in "dutch style" before so that's cool, plus the clients are of Dutch ancestry and I've never seen anything like that in the area before....so neat on lots of levels.

I may well send you an email, but the nice thing about having the back and forth in the forum is that's all down for the record and people coming along after me can learn from it. "We're all in this together" as they say!

Thanks again for the pointers!

Cheers,

Brent

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#33002 - 06/04/15 10:20 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Cheers Brent, great connecting and do keep us all informed of your progress with this project...Sound very cool, and I am sure you will love cutting a "Dutch y" they are one of my favorite barn types.
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#33003 - 06/04/15 10:30 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
timberframe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 25
Loc: Canada
Any thoughts on the best place to put the post scarf in the dutch barn? I was thinking above the anchor beam as it would leave the post solid up through both ties.

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#33004 - 06/04/15 11:16 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Hey Brent,

Yep that sound about right...

I would come up 100 mm above the top of the anchor beam "diminish haunch" or other housing and then go up another minimum of 800 mm for the splice length.

Regards,

j
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