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#33015 - 06/06/15 12:28 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
First David, I don't "mash" anything into timber frames...especially historic vernacular restorations, as I suggested above in a very clear foundational ethos. If Brent's goal is a 100% authentic recreation of a Dutch Barn, then I am all for making the effort to replicated and match that known vernacular in every element of means, method, and material. I have absolutely nothing against such efforts at all...

Wherever someone, be it an Architect or Timberwright, (with good counsel from our PE I should hope) cares to place a scarf joint in a frame is by all means their pejorative, and right of creativity; especially if it had...as you say... "nothing to do with restoration."

I am not sure what the comment about "someone with an internet contention and opinion" has to do with this conversation and seemed rather a hurtful intent.. I think everyone commenting here is basing their comments on experiences. I would also suggest we all have valid opinions to share and internet connection...including you. Up to now it has been a friendly discourse of sharing those ideas...At leas I thought it was...??

So...if something isn't a full historic restoration or reproduction, I don't see the reason for suggesting stifling creativity. Contemporary frames can come in any (or the many) styles or flavors the originators care to put in them, and I think many of the contemporary forms are rather stunning. Especially when these forms respectfully and appropriately borrow from other vernacular.

Respectfully, just an alternate view.
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#33016 - 06/06/15 04:12 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
timberframe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 26
Loc: Canada


Thanks very much all, I appreciate the time to post and I am soaking it all in. My preference would be to not scarf for all kinds of reasons we seem to all agree on. I am proposing a sort of middle ground to the clients that I hope will work. I am going to try to shorten the barn a little by flattening the roof and getting approval for some lower headroom upstairs. This will make the posts shorter and with that I am going to ask the sawer to commit to sourcing and sawing as many of the timbers as he can, with the objective of getting half of them. I will then source a few from my own connections as I can, and we'll scarf the rest. My hope is that of the 12 long posts required, only 4 will be scarfed and i will make sure I get paid for them! I probably distribute them evenly along the building, but my intuition says I shouldn't put them on the ends, having them somewhere in the middle 8 posts would make more sense.

On another note, what separation between the anchor beam mortise and the lower tie mortise is typically used? I have seen lots of pics, but no measurements.

Thanks again all,

Brent

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#33017 - 06/06/15 05:42 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Hi Brent,

I was just in two vintage examples from 1780 to 1820 in up state New York in March this year before going to Texas for a Barn repare. Those two examples and other examples I have been acquaintance with probably average (subjective guess) anywhere from 250 mm (~10") to 400 mm (~16".) I do believe there is some recorded data out there, I will see if I can find it, unless someone can put there hands on it sooner for you...

Regards,

j
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#33018 - 06/06/15 06:08 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
timberframe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 26
Loc: Canada
Excellent, thank you again! I think there's another way I can tighten things up a bit.

B

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#33019 - 06/06/15 06:09 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Dave Shepard Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 708
Loc: Alford, MA
Jay, the comment about the internet connection was not directed at you. I was simply trying to bring some of my background into the picture as a way to add relevance to my post as compared to a lot of people that have an opinion on something they have no first hand knowledge of, as is often the case on the internet.

timberframe, what are you calling the lower tie? Is it the girt that connect each purlin post together? Or are you talking about a loft joist or outshot tie, as we call them, that goes from the purlin post to a wall post?


Here is a short video of one of the Dutch barns I restored:

https://youtu.be/6mcIrlYBua8
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#33020 - 06/06/15 06:28 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: Dave Shepard]
timberframe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 26
Loc: Canada

Sorry Dave, my terminology must not be right, I meant the two girts on either side of the anchor and a bit lower than them. So I think the latter of your two. Good to know the proper terminology, thanks.

I will check out your video!

Brent

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#33021 - 06/06/15 07:08 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Hi Brent,

I knew what you meant by "lower tie mortise." There are just so many freaking terms and many even specific to a certain region or county, that it can be difficult at times to get them all sorted. I have floating around here someplace the "actual" dutch terminology for these peaces and I believe it translates into "central isle post" and "eave posts" for these bent assemblies though "purlin post" and "eave post" have become standard nomenclature I here used today as Dave has suggested. If I can find that document (or someone else has a copy) please do share it.

Hello Dave S.,

I appreciate your validation, and remembered that video...(excellent model by the way)...wish that was still the practice, but CAD has won out for speed and dexterity for most of us...They do still do these for the more prepackages frames everywhere I know timber framing to still be active. Nice to see one like that. Do you have a video of the finished frame?

I apologize if I mistook your meaning and intention. The "teacher" in me is very keen to listen to everyone's views, even if it is only based on a little experience. I have learned as much from my students over the years as I have the experienced folks sharing. The "new to the craft" often have the most insightful questions and perspectives and their mind are fresh to all this stuff.... grin

Regards,

j
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#33022 - 06/06/15 07:51 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
I have to ask how long these to long post are..... 20'? With 6 bents and all splices(although there now seem fewer) that would be 12 post, each post having two halves for 24 pieces. Depending on the skill and tooling each could take 2-5 hours to cut. In splicing alone I can see 6-10,000 dollars in additional labor. It would also require more board feet of timber,as the short piece would require the length of the splice extra plus the dropped ends of each piece. This is decent enough justification to use long timber, let alone the structural issue it brings. I would throw some iron at it and bolt them if it came down to splices. A glued joint is going to require even more time to execute, you will need exceptional tooling and/or patients.

Also, with these splices think about the raising and how the slip of a bent would could effect this splice? Getting a bent into the air is not always a pleasant thing.

Source the correct length timber and have it shipped in.

Glad to hear J. Sobon had issues with too many splices in such a frame, Dave.

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#33023 - 06/06/15 07:51 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
Dave Shepard Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 708
Loc: Alford, MA
Both of the Dutch barns I restored are in storage. One is for sale the other has been sold, but the owner is on about year 5 of a 20+ million dollar office building renovation. I did models of both barns. They are a great tool to show people proportions and possibilities for the frame.
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#33024 - 06/06/15 08:20 PM Re: Barn comission conundrum [Re: timberframe]
timberframe Offline
Member

Registered: 08/23/11
Posts: 26
Loc: Canada
I agree, that many scarfs would be a little crazy and blow the budget I'm sure.

Well I've managed to shrink the barn by a couple of feet. Still a good pitch, and the headroom under the outshot tie is 7 feet, and the anchor almost 9' and the headroom under the upper tie in the upstairs is 6.5' but of course there's a lot more headroom between the bents. If I can get the ok on these clearances (and make sure they remember the braces too!) this would drop the big posts to 18' including tenons....which I think ought to be ok. That sawyer has already sawed me a whole bunch of 8x10 at 17.5' so....

Thanks all, I'll keep ya posted.
B

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