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Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Ron Mansour] #33380 01/25/16 12:35 PM
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timberwrestler Offline
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Oh, I'm saying there are heaps of scam artists in the construction world. I agree that protecting yourself legally and going through the right process makes sense. I look at construction as much more of a team thing though. Ask around, interview, check out people's work. What you proposed works, it just sets up a very antagonistic relationship with the people working on your project. It's more of a commercial approach.

Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Ron Mansour] #33381 01/26/16 12:05 AM
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mo Offline
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This thread is full of wisdom.

Jay seems to have found the elusive price per square foot for timber frame work! Care to share some insight? I tend to compare it to pricing cabinetry by the same measure!

Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Ron Mansour] #33384 01/30/16 11:36 PM
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These questions of design sequence get into some very sticky territory quickly, with a lot of possibility for time and money wasted all around. In my earlier days I don't know how often I put hours and hours into quotes and changes to quotes, only to have them pull the plug, leaving me out that time. It would also be irresponsible to put the customer in a situation where they are investing time, energy, and emotion into a design that they can never bring to fruition.
I have a way that I approach it, which seems to work pretty well all around. I prefer to be pretty actively involved in the design process, along with an architect, TF engineer, and the homeowner. Most frequently, prospective customers tend to contact me first, before they have selected an architect or any other contractors. I can pretty quickly establish the basics of what they are envisioning in a house, at least enough to say tell them what ballpark they are in for the whole house, and enough to give them a budgetary estimate on frame and enclosure, which is usually within 10%. I do all the above for free and probably have about 4hrs of conversations into this.
If we are looking like it's in the realm of possibility, it's time to get an architect involved. The architect(s) will usually do a consultation, give a bid for services, and take a look at making sure project budget looks feasible.
If all goes well to this point I will ask the customer to sign a Memorandum of Understanding. This assigns them an approximate spot on my schedule and gives a brief overview of the project. I also get a small down payment at this point which goes toward planning costs, usually about 2% of my package cost. This is deducted from the down payment when the project is fully defined and has come to real contract. This down payment is stated to revert to them if I welch on the project and if they bail I keep whatever amount that I have in time invested. This puts a little skin in the game for the customer but not so much that they are overexposed.
At this point, we start the full 3 way conversation between customer, timber framer, and architect. The timber frame informs design and layout, as well as vice versa, so there is lots of modeling, problem solving, and back and forth all around to ensure that all parties are happy, and we come out with a good build-able, within budget design.
At the end of this process, we have a full set of plans by which an exact project cost can be determined. At this point I will either come to full contract with the customer and get the production process ramped up, or if for some reason, the customer chooses to abandon the project, I leave with my design expenses paid for. Although, I have really never had anyone do that.
The method I have been using seems to keep everything nice and transparent while limiting exposure for everyone. I don't mind spending a few hours talking to a prospective client and putting together a rough model, even if it doesn't happen. I figure that it's reasonable for a customer to get a free initial consultation and estimate.
To put it succinctly, the customer should not proceed without a decent assurance that the chosen direction is within budget, but the customer is not going to be able to nail down exact project pricing without paying for some design work.


grinI must say I'm pretty dubious about the existence of any per sq. ft. TF price. At least not without so many qualifiers as to make it meaningless. People are constantly asking me, "what is your sq. ft. price for a timber frame". My answer is, "Anywhere from $20 to $100."

Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Ron Mansour] #33385 01/31/16 03:02 PM
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Hylandwoodcraft Offline
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Speaking to what Brad was outlining, I would absolutely agree that no TF work should start before there are finished project plans. I also feel personally that I have a responsibility to the customer to do my due diligence to ensure that the project is feasible within the customers budget. Many times it is our responsibility to slow a customer down and force them to get their ducks in a row. I have no idea on Brad's specific circumstances, but I think it shows how fraught the relationship in a construction project can be.
Right now I am talking to a customer who is in a big rush to get rolling with the frame, get the contract together, and give me lots of money! I've had to slow them WAY down, put them on a reasonable timeline and told them that we are nowhere near ready for them to be cutting me big checks.
When it comes down to it, when we build something for someone, we are custodians of there hopes, dreams, and money! People usually have a lot wrapped up into what they build both emotionally and financially, but many times are ill equipped to make fully informed decisions on how to bring it to fruition. It's our first responsibility to protect the customer, even from ourselves!

Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Ron Mansour] #33386 02/01/16 01:55 AM
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This is a really great discussion. I am coming to this conversation as a client (owner-builder) who is a bit overwhelmed by the whole process. I have been in contact with a couple TF'ers who want to sign me up for a lot of design work. By a lot, I was told anywhere from 80-100 hours of design work. I may start another thread (with more specifics) out of respect for the original poster but I wanted to express my gratitude for the information here.

Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Ron Mansour] #33387 02/01/16 02:37 PM
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I am coming at this from the perspective of a designer. I agree that construction should not begin on anything before the design work is done. Understanding the budget, both client and contractor, is an important piece of the project. The client should be comfortable that the “ballpark” cost of the total project is in line with their budget so no one is wasting time on something that can never happen. Assuming they have an appropriate budget, design work should come next. The timber frame and house design should be done simultaneously in order to achieve the best outcome for the client. Forcing a house plan onto a frame or forcing a frame into a house plan will not get you the best results. I tell clients that a timber frame can be made to fit just about any plan, but it may be overly complicated and costly. Conversely, I can make a plan to fit a frame, but they may have to make compromises in the design in order for it to work with that timber frame. The best way is to integrate the 2 from the beginning of design. Making adjustments to meet expectations is a lot a lot easier and cheaper on paper than in the shop or on the construction site. The client should find a designer that is familiar with timber framing or a designer that can work with you to coordinate the timber frame with the overall house design. Once you have a solid design in place, a more accurate price can be put on the project so everyone is on the same page when construction begins. Hope this makes sense. Good luck.


Steve Tracy
Minneapolis Minnesota
www.bigrivertimberworks.com
Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Ron Mansour] #33402 02/05/16 03:48 AM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Quote:
Jay seems to have found the elusive price per square foot for timber frame work! Care to share some insight? I tend to compare it to pricing cabinetry by the same measure!


Hi Mo, et al,

Found might not be what I have done... crazy wink But I have gotten enough splitters now to have a good handle on it over all...

Additionally, going back perhaps 30 years now, it is a "kind'a hobby" with checking not only regional but global pricing metrics for everything from "cubic metre" pricing for stone and masonry to the same thing for volumes of cabinetry and on to esoteric things as well...Studying old historic records as well is very informative for us History Buffs and Academics, where we see barns (where I started) priced by the "board foot" which still averages about $5 up to $10.

It is always a "red flag" (at least to me) when a GC throughs around that only "T&M" is the best way to go and "nobody can actually give fixed pricing." Understanding (thoroughly) not only a region's "pricing matrix" but a professions, is paramount to being a professional in a trade. Even a Plastic Surgeon uses a pricing matrix for their "art" even though bone and flesh...Professionals know their craft...either learning the "hard way" by bidding too low (we have all done that) or bidding too high and losing work.

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...I must say I'm pretty dubious about the existence of any per sq. ft. TF price. At least not without so many qualifiers as to make it meaningless.


If someone is asking a "pricing field" for timber frames (on average) cost to cost...I give them just that...from lowest which is currently $9.50 wood included to over $600...

As for "meaningless," I would totally agree when just bantered out of context or point of reference. I (nor do most professionals doing this for any length of time...or any profession for that matter) have any issue taking some very basic information from a potential consumer and providing them some very realistic numbers to gage whether they want to pursue something...be it shaker kitchen cabinets (starting at 4/bdft) a dry laid stone wall (starting at $375 a linear meter for 1 metre high wall...good stone on site), mosaic (starting at $250/metre squared plus materials), tadelakt plastered bathroom (about average at $270 per metre squared) or a timber frame...with a national average of $25 to $45 per foot squared if all are pooled together and a mean is taken...

Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Jay White Cloud] #33410 02/06/16 02:17 AM
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Hylandwoodcraft Offline
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That makes more sense now that it's explained, Jay. I was thinking more in terms of how people approach me with that eternal question, "What does one of these cost a square foot?".
Usually it's the first or second question they ask when they first meet me at a job-site. I agree that once one nails down what "these" means it's easy to figure out a pricing matrix. I guess that what bothers me about talk of sq. ft. pricing, is not in regards to pricing specifics as you mentioned, but when it is applied as a catch-all concept without specifics.
For example, there is no such thing as a "typical sq ft price for a timber frame" but it IS possible to say " a timber framed New World Dutch barn would typically be x$'s a sq. ft."
I agree wholeheartedly about open ended T and M work. Once in a while I'll do time and material, but with a "not to exceed" number as a cap. 95% of what I do is all solid pricing. I must say that I have learned the hard way what to charge, by under bidding projects. But if I didn't know how much to charge, then I obviously wasn't worth paying that much anyway grin. That is how one builds a body of work though. I have run across instances a couple times now where people have gone with me because I gave them a firm price. And they were really really impressed that I gave them a firm price! In one case it was probably the simplest house you can imagine, 28'x 32' posts, plates,common rafters, typical bracing. The other timber framer wouldn't give a firm price, said the project was so complicated that there was no way to figure it out and there was no way to figure how long it might take. They also wanted to go sans knee bracing and rely on the stairs to brace the building. And, if the project got to the point that it was too expensive they could always eliminate the timber rafters! I was pretty flabbergasted by that level of unprofessional conduct. This timber framer also gives classes as well! You can't even make this stuff up!

Re: Advice on design process needed. [Re: Hylandwoodcraft] #33417 02/06/16 01:38 PM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Quote:
"What does one of these cost a square foot?"


Brother...that one drives us all crazy!! crazy

I usually start with a smile and it depends...Then I give them that average from before of $9.5 to $600...This usually (if they are really looking for a price and a contract) leads to better conversations... smile

From another conversation on the forum now, I pointed out that it is EXTREMELY!!! important not to confuse "turn key" pricing with the cost of a frame per square "anything" or board foot costs...These are "apples and oranges." I think that is where I might have confused folks a bit with my comments...I should of clarified that, as many folks (including timber framers) confuse the two.

Quote:
For example, there is no such thing as a "typical sq ft price for a timber frame" but it IS possible to say " a timber framed New World Dutch barn would typically be x$'s a sq. ft."


YES!!! and perfect...That's it...generalities are to start the conversation with a potential client then we dial them in...

Quote:
I agree wholeheartedly about open ended T and M work. Once in a while I'll do time and material, but with a "not to exceed" number as a cap. 95% of what I do is all solid pricing.


Yep...Unless I am doing some really nebulous consulting work I have a set price and even with "consulting" it is by the day plus per diem and travel costs.

Quote:
I must say that I have learned the hard way what to charge, by under bidding projects. But if I didn't know how much to charge, then I obviously wasn't worth paying that much anyway...grin.


That is part of the reason I try to share here and be as open as possible with the information I have (and do) accumulate. It helps each of us to know better our craft and to give potential clients a consensus of market values as they rise and fall.

Quote:
I have run across instances a couple times now where people have gone with me because I gave them a firm price.


Of course!! Because you are presenting the confidence of a professional and even if your price may be higher than others, your credence and knowledge begets confidence within the client of your abilities...Which is all our goals.

Quote:
The other timber framer wouldn't give a firm price, said the project was so complicated that there was no way to figure it out and there was no way to figure how long it might take.


Common (too common) and a sign that this individual is not ready to be cutting frames professionally in my opinion. I don't mean for that to sound arrogant...but...there are more than half of them out there that I meet that are "selling frames" and they have little to no experience...They may have been "contractors" for a meager 15 years but have only been timber framing for half of that...I am sorry, that is not the way it use to be...You worked with a Timberwright for at least a decade before you took off on your own. Now they will do it after a single workshop...!!!???

I am fine with folks with less experience (and lots of talent) cutting and selling frames, but they need a knowledge base beyond their years and chronological experience. I know of a few "young folk" that are some of the best out there...But...in my view they are more than "channeling the old spirits" in there work and knowledge...They also are very open and humble folks, which is probably why they are so talented...

Quote:
This timber framer also gives classes as well! You can't even make this stuff up!


Sean...I get this everyday and it drives me "batty!!!" I know of 4 "timber frame workshops" being taught in the next 6 months (and counting) that are anywhere from $500 to $1500 and not a single one of them is being taught by someone with more than 6 years of experience and most by those with less than 3 year!!!

It's an epidemic and is spilling into who I have to compete with for projects in both building frame and teaching...The poor consumer doesn't know better unless I take the time to "front load" them with the skill sets of "good shopping" whether it is a timber frame building or a workshop...

I wish I could stop and see you, I am passing through your area today on the way to a Dutch Barn and then on to a Wisconsin project...

Give me a call some time...(or any time you need a "what do you think..." conversation)

Cheers,

j

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 02/06/16 01:48 PM.
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