I have my biggest project to date coming up soon, a 36’ x 36’ house frame, story-&-half, high-posted Cape, with 2nd floor loft, other half open to roof.
I am not a design/build company, just a small one-man shop the does frame fabrication only, handing off all before (drawing/engineering) and after (GC) duties to others. I have someone that I work with regularly that produces my frame shop-drawings, also engineers and stamps the framework (if needed), but does not do architectural drawings.
I’m trying to provide the client (and myself) with a more structured, orderly system of approach. This project is budget-dictated, all out of pocket, no mortgage involved.

The client has shown me examples of the house design he has in mind, along with a rough floor plan, and I have worked out an initial framing scheme with him, (all subject to refinement of course). I have given him a ballpark estimate on this initial timber frame skeletal framework, and he is fine with that.

What he is concerned with at this early point is whether the total/final cost of the house will fit within his budget parameters.

The uncertainty revolves around the structural timber frame drawings being produced by my guy, and the architectural drawings being produced by an unknown at this time (who may or may not be familiar with timber frame construction), and what the correct sequence should be regarding the clients financial commitment.

Can/should the client’s first financial commitment be to the finalized design and engineering of the structural framework, without him having a complete set of architectural drawings in hand?

And, since architectural drawings will yield the info he needs in order to obtain accurate GC bids on final project cost, permits, etc, how does the client make a financial commitment with an architect without plans for a finalized and engineered timber framework in hand first?

So…what step should come first?

I’m wondering if I’m making this more complicated than need be, by not choosing just one company/individual that can address timber frame design, engineering and architectural detailing in one financial commitment for the client?

I am very open to any and all input.
Thanks.

When someone is in your position, I usually try and get the architectural drawings done first so that the client and others can see what the entire finished design will look like. Run that past everyone and make all the changes that come up (and some will come up) and then put the frame inside the shell of the house.
Modify the frame to fit the shell so that all windows and doors will open and not be effected by brace locations.
After the client approves the shell and the frame then send it out to engineering to be reviewed and update the frame from the engineer's input.
After the engineering is done you'll have everything needed to get bids for the frame materials and enclosing the design.
Good luck with your project.

Jim Rogers

Hi Ron,

Hope this helps, and feel free to send me an email to chat further if you feel the need...



He (as any client) should be concerned with this. This is the "meat and potatoes" of a skilled "design/build" companies offerings as a project facilitator, whether an individual like yourself, or a group.

Every item of the project "should be" examined, discussed, and considered as an individual element and then as an "item in context" and how it will work in the collective and/or concert of the architecture.

Any (most?) of these items should be "bid" or "priced out" to find the best value as compared to "from, functions and durability," when possible and applicable.

For an example, we have a large project in Wisconsin taking place...as such we are in "ramp up" mood for the project so everything from hardware to plinth stone supplies are being bid out and/or examined.

When taking on the entire facilitation management aspects of a project (even traditional/natural building projects like timber frames)every detail must be examined and charted for not only comparatives in value to cost, but other factors as well...including client desires and views as they may affect the fiscal parameters of the project and its asset resources both monetary and/or physical.



Yikes! O.K..Here is where it can get a bit "sticky" and reflects some of the many issues we are seeing in the "design/build" arena...

Many General Contractors, Timber Framers, and other in the building field..."think"...they can design and don't need an Architect.

Well...some of them actually can...some REALLY CAN'T!!! and only think they can...and the wisdom comes in knowing the difference. It sounds funny and perhaps coy...but it is true...

All I can share in this area is from my experience which may be (and certainly probably is) different from others; please choose your designer or Architect wisely...They should fit like tailor clothing and give the project the feeling the client and build team wishes...

I am a designer with a strong background in art, and design so I tend to be a real snob when it comes to architecture (and Architects.) Some I absolutely love, few as dear friends and most I think are in the "wrong profession." I agree with Frank Gehry views of this:

98% of modern architecture as “crap."

With that stated I am a real picking individual when it comes to spending the "fiscal assets" of a project on an "Architect that isn't needed."

So if an "architect" is needed, wanted, and/or already part of a project then they need to know what a timber frame is and have better worked with them before (and done it very well!!!) to ever be considered for a project...Snobby, but it makes for a better outcome.

Second, get bids and proposals form the Architects or Designers. This is called the process of RFP (Request for Proposals) and should come with a solid "ball park" price. Don't let anyone calling themselves a "professional" give you any kind of nebulous "hourly fee" for their work unless it is truly a nebulous consulting project. Seldom are basic "home builds" nebulous in nature...

The client's "Fiscal obligation" (aka financial commitment) does not start until all parties (Timberwright and build team included) is satisfied and there is a solid and well written contract outlining all parameters of design services and "change order" fee structures outlined. This can be as simple or as complex as needed, though it can and should be pretty simple for most "domestic timber frame" home builds.

We work our design fees (as we are usually the Timberwrights as well cutting the frame) as part of a percentage of final "turn key" cost/value for a project in the range of 4% to 8% and can go as high as 12% for more demanding venue/projects. On some project the "design fees" are waived completely and/or rolled into the "administrative fees" for facilitating the entire project. It all depends of the "team assembled."



NO!!!

We are not even close to that, even though some Architects and/or General Contracting Design/build firms "push to contract" just to secure work and often a "bad design" to go with it.

Find who you "think" you may want to work with as a designer; let them give you (and client) their "pitch", and request an RFP model of what they are thinking of after meeting or talking with your assemble team and client. Vet them and discuss "how you feel" about working with them and if this Architect or Designer is "getting it."

I am presuming, at this point, you are acting as "primary facilitator" for the project and will also be cutting the frame as well. So, as facilitator you are doing the "leg work" of helping the client find and choose your Architect or Designer. This can be as simple as a web search, knocking on doors, or following leads from referenced sources.

Once all parties "feel right" about the choice, a contract (with complete costs) can be submitted to you for the project.



O.k..we are getting the "cart before the horse," perhaps...

I have another project after the one in Wisconsin, and it is here in Vermont for a client that wants an "all natural/sustainable build" from a "stone foundation" to "ridge beam."

As of a month ago, they were actually going to be "breaking ground" for a concrete basement and attached slab when they (in desperation) sent me an email after reading some posts/articles I have written online about natural building, timber framing and aspects related to this very topic. At the end of our first meeting I explained to them that "they are in charge"..NOT..their General Contractor or Architect. (The Architect is gone now and the GC will probably play a much smaller role.)

The client needs to (usually??)..."SLOW DOWN"...on most projects. They get really excited and things start to happen and everything gets rushed. This really takes place when "modern" General Contractors and Banks get involved because...for them..."speed" and the amount of money the "can make" (and do) is the most import thing over every other aspect of a project and its architectural form...It is the primary reason we have the "banking issues" we do and one of the reasons our countries infrastructure is falling apart.

A basic "foot print" and square metre (your square foot) price of a frame is more than enough on most "domestic" projects to get in the 95% range (85% at worse) of total cost. You as the primary facilitator can work up all these numbers from wire and windows to plaster and tile...One of the primary ways for any client to "vet out" a design build firm (or individual) to oversee their project is how good a handle they have on "costs" of everything from stone to timber frames per a set metric be it a square foot or cubic meter. One of the main reasons I get "consultations" and projects is the ability to "off the cuff" share esoteric pricing matrix like the natural average for architectural stone below "monument grade" is around $25/cubic foot for the raw stone, but can be lower if the quarry is near the build site. This type of broad and variable understanding of building materials is a real must for anyone considering overseeing/facilitating the "turn keying" of a project. Good Architects and Designers have this type of knowledge base to pull from to support good fiscal management of a project. Its all about not only having the "right answers" but also being able to "ask the correct questions," when facilitating the complete aspects of a projects...especially many of the contemporary "natural" or sustainable "green building" that often have "timber frame bones" in them.



Well you have a client...I assume there is a "project site" (and its views and opinions need to be included in this...The "land" does have a voice in all this and it is a big one!!)...You are the "Project Facilitator" (or plan to be) so you need to assemble a "build team" and manage them....(Think..."hurd cats,"... )

So...first step...assemble team...



No, you are not making this more complicated...

Just "going out and hiring someone" is not the answer either. Shop, compare, think about it, talk it over with the client, and compare some more...make a "good choice" not just a "fast and convenient choice."

If new to this...it is complicated...If you are familiar with it...well...it is rather simple and can even be looked at as easy and fun...It is a matter of perspective and experience. Some days I just "freak out" at all the details that must be dealt with while on other days I realize the "we" (as humans) often over complicated things way more than they need to be and this often comes from greed, personal agendas, and or "not really knowing what the heck we are doing..."

So just relax and take a breath...you have done more than most..."You" at least were smart/wise enough to ask the questions...This was a good place to ask.

Regards,

j

P.s. Sorry for any "typos" I had a cup of coffee for my morning break and I type over one hundred words a minute and now the coffee is GONE!!!
>>>

Ron,

I'm pretty much in agreement with Jay. Principally that the architectural (including site) design needs to be in parallel to the timber frame design. And that the design is first, and frankly is more important than how tight your joints are (something that timber framers are notoriously bad at keeping in mind).

I'm also in agreement with the team approach. For future clients, try to have that team assembled. It doesn't need to be one specific architect or builder--it could be a few that are either interviewed by the client, or maybe you just pick who you think is appropriate.

There's a problem that often occurs in the usual design/bid/build model of construction. The clients and the architect sit down to design their dream home/barn/shop. It's exciting for everyone. Then it goes out to bid, and the clients learn that the project as drawn is 75% over their budget. It doesn't always happen--there are plenty of architects that can design to a budget--but it happens enough that it's worth mentioning.

I get around that problem in a few ways. First of all, we don't bid on projects (well I would, but they would have to pay me). I want clients who want to work with us. Secondly, I'm involved in the design process, not the whole way through but at least at stages. So earlier in conceptual design, or schematic design, I'll look at things, offer some commentary, suggestions, value-engineering, and preliminary pricing. That may also include various other consultants and subcontractors. All of that happens under a preconstruction contract, which ensures that everyone gets paid for their time.

Brad, Jim and Jay, a most sincere thank you for your valued input and enlightening advice! The room isn't dark any more!! You all brought up varied and valid points, and the picture is much more clear to me now. And Jay, the extreme level of detail in your response is very much appreciated!
Thank you all for taking time out of your busy days to help me out.

Good Luck!!!

Keep us up to speed with what you find useful and helpful in your endeavors for this project...

Regards,

j

Hi Ron,
I agree with Jay but I would summarize like this...

I am in the middle of a building project - my timberframed shop. I was poorly advised by timberframer, who also acted as designer, to proceed with starting the frame BEFORE the drawing package was complete. I kept asking what it was going to cost and he confidently told me $XXX per square foot. and that it was fine go ahead. Well that was very bad advice. He is a very good timberframer, but as I found out, not good as a designer/architect/drawing.

When I finally did get the drawings which were months late, they still left a lot to be desired. I went out for bids and the cost came in 63% over budget. I've had to deal with that, other design/drawing problems, I've had to finish some of the drawing work myself.

Fortunately this was my shop and not my house. It's been tough to deal with and now I'm Raising in February instead of the planned August.

1. Always do the complete design before doing anything else.
2. Use the drawing package to get all your bids to determine the real cost of the project. There are a lot of costs involved that many don't think of up front - Rental equipment, Porta Jon, Dumpster, Raising crew travel and lodging and raising costs, ... If you can, use someone with experience to help you do those cost estimates.
3. If you are not experienced, you need a project manager. You may expect your GC get the best costs for you, but many times that is not their concern or interest. If your GC contract is a "cost plus", then the contractor has no direct interest in keeping costs down. He'll prefer to work with his buddies, or those he usually works with even if their bids are high. You need someone who will look out for your interests and know if a bid is high or not, will get competitive bids if your GC does not, challenge your GC's bids if needed. Your contract should be set up to allow you choose your own subs if needed and the GC agrees to work with them or allow them access to the site. Yes you're have to pay a project manager, but a good one will be well worth it by looking out for your interests, helping to do contracts, working with your to select materials etc. A GC in my experience isn't spending a whole lot of time helping you to select the siding, exterior trim, gutters, plumbing fixtures, tile, flooring, lighting, windows etc.
4. Never let anyone talk you into staring a timberframe before all architectural design drawings are complete, you've been through and honed them, and you've done complete real bidding to come up with a valid cost BEFORE you start any physical work.
5. Design should start with site visit, a lot of discussion and note taking by the designer, a formalized process for conceptual phase so you know exactly what will happen, and so you know they've got their stuff together.
6. The building permit should be in the homeowners name.
7. If you are doing a cost plus with the GC, also have a "no lien" agreement. Have a lawyer experienced in building contracts.
8. If the timberframer thinks he can be the designer - be skeptical. Have they done a project exactly like yours before where it's handed over to a GC after raising? Will their architectural drawing package really be up to snuff? Being a timberframe shop, and being a designer are two totally separate businesses.
9. IF a timberframer is advising you to move forward with a frame before a complete drawing package and bidding(not estimating, but bidding by subs) is completed, he probably needs work in his timber framing shop and is looking out for his interest rather than yours- RUN!

I could go on with details, but I think this answers the question.

In short, I disagree with everything that brad_bb says above.

To elaborate on my comment above, without going into enormous detail...

What I disagree with, is the overall tone of Brad's 9 points is that everyone is trying to rip you off. There certainly plenty of scam artists in the construction industry, and as an owner/builder you should probably be on your toes. But all of the usual common-sense hiring recommendations apply: ask for referrals from people that you trust, ask for and call references, informally interview the people that you'll be handing 10s to 100s of thousands of dollars.

There's also a tone that all of these PMs, GCs, subs, and designers are sort of a commodity. If all you want are (free) bids on everything, you get what you're setting yourself up for. Unless the drawings and scope of work are extremely clear (as in handing every party a detailed scope of work), you're comparing different assumptions by different companies (say plumbers, for example), that have different cost structures to their own organizations.

One plumber may be a solo operator. His/her price is great, but will show up when he/she is able to. Is that going to throw off your entire schedule? Do you have a professional relationship with that plumber that may help? The second plumber has 30 on staff. Their price is higher. They have great plumbers and horrible plumbers on staff, but they can get there on short notice. The third plumber is a pair, their price was high as well. They spec'ed all copper supplies and a condensing boiler on their proposal, but you don't know why, you just handed them a set of plans. So who do you chose? Maybe you have another 3 plumbers on the list too. Maybe you called one of those plumbers for some other work, and when they showed up, you weren't ready. Think they're going to put a PIA factor on your bid?

I know who designed your frames, and he is without a doubt one of the most talented TF designers, and framers in the country. Pricing is very regional, so maybe that was off. There is often a ridiculous amount of blaming and miscommunication that goes back and forth between the builder and designer. Part of that is most client's unwillingness to pay for a real, full set of drawings. That's everything, every cabinet, every trim detail, all mechanicals, all selections on every finish and fixture. With that in hand, you can get a very specific price. Without it everyone is making assumptions. I've only seen that level of drawings on multi-million dollar projects. The project can work fine without all of those details decided at the design phase, but they do all need to be decided at some point.

There's lots more individual details that I strongly disagree with (cost plus, liens, building permits, selections, choosing your own subs!), but I'm just sticking to the big picture items here.

Lastly, if you're building your (presumably) dream shop and house, I feel like you've started off on the wrong foot. You should be excited, not bitter over things in the past. The people building your projects should be excited. You should be supporting them, and they should be doing the best work that they can (for the price). It's a crazy business building structures, but it should be fun.

I have no intention of airing dirty laundry. Brad, I do not think “everyone is trying to rip you off” as you put it, and I never said anyone was a "scam artist". I was merely telling Ron about what not to do, from my own experience with designer and GC, and how to protect yourself. I think you're reading more into my post than what is actually there.

Protecting yourself has no bearing on the process that should be followed – complete design, real world costing, and then frame cutting. To NOT have real world costing of a complete design sets you up to go way over budget. Yes your costing is going to have many variables which must be taken into account, which is why, as I mentioned, you or your project manager has to have the experience to know if a bid is reasonable or not, and how to make educated assumptions and estimations to put together a real world cost. Ron asked a question and I tried to answer with what to be aware of, to hopefully prevent someone from going through what I have.