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Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33424 02/07/16 03:18 AM
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D L Bahler Offline OP
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I've always kind of viewed wrap and strap as SIP's unaccomplished little brother. It seems to me to be a lot the same concept when it's all said and done, except that SIP's must be manufactured and need heavy equipent while one guy could wrap and strap by himself.

Most of my efforts have been focused on ways to refine the concept of exo-framing (if there's a better term, please tell me)
It is bothersome for me to have redundancy in my projects, where you essentially build another house around a timber frame. But I've yet to find a very good way around that.

I've worked on systems relating to wrap and strap, exo-framing, and infill-framing, which leaves only a portion of the framing exposed on the interior.


Was de eine ilüchtet isch für angeri villech nid so klar.
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Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33425 02/07/16 03:33 AM
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Is it my bad for falling into the weeds? Burdock is some good stuff!

I do apply, for the most part, a wrap and strap system. Most direct and simple system going, from my perspective.

How is the cheese making business going DL? Curious, I now have an interest.... in some aged cheeses and was wondering if you do any aged cheese. This is still on topic, in part, as cheese caves are of two categories, natural underground caves or above ground fully controlled environments. These are like super controlled environments very similar to how our homes are starting to become. One a high tech approach or a more simple natural build.

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33426 02/07/16 04:28 AM
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D L Bahler Offline OP
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Hey Tim,

I've got on the schedule some time in early march, depending on the cows and Maple Syrup.

I'll have to go with the high tech route, not a whole lot of natural caves in Central Indiana.

Interestingly enough, I am of the opinion that this is a situation that works best with a very high thermal mass, making it relatively easy to regulate the temperature within a fairly small zone


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Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33427 02/07/16 01:19 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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This spring will be busy.

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: TIMBEAL] #33431 02/08/16 12:31 AM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Hi Tim,

I will do my best to reply, then take a look at "the weeds." whistle

Quote:
I have heard about this moisture issue. Most all if not all houses have this same issue, it occurs in the basement where there is not enough exchange of air. Where is the science to counter this moisture issue?


Unfortunately, much (not all mind you) of the "science" is generated by the industries that profit from the methods applied within the "insulation industry." This, in my experience has jaded greatly the data and conclusions draw from what research there is. As for "independent research" there is much, and some of it is good, but more aimed at material science than "application/type modalities."

Interstitial moisture is a problem throughout many "modern buildings" ever since adopting the "airtight" concept for modern architecture. Much of this coming out of Europe (aka mainly Germany at Passivhaus Institut) for the "passive house." Now being strongly reconsidered by many as needing to be "rethought out" in its entirety, since "passive house" was a "concept" not a historically "proven" (or even well understood concept) in "real world" application.

I never did (nor will) buy into the "airtight" house concept. I thought if folly then and still do. I design/facilitate "houses" (mainly natural and/or traditional) and not "space ships or submarines." Secondly, like a submarine, these "airtight" homes MUST rely on technology of all sorts from "plastic foams" to "mechanical lungs" (aka HVAC air to air heat exchangers) to not only to function optimally...BUT!!...at all!!! Like in my other world of "outdoor education" I have adopted and used the much more traditional concept of "draft proof" architecture in place of an "airtight" concept, as it does not rely on whether a "machine" is working to maintain "breathable (or healthy) air. I would also add, I am still a fan of opening a window and not feeling "guilty" about it for some misplaced belief that I a "harm the environment" or being wasteful...

I do agree...the process...(which ever one??) is expensive either in material and/or labor to achieve it in good form...

Quote:
Were these five builds you encountered built with tires? Tires seem far too labor intensive. Concrete is a great replacement.


This subject (I know I am silly...I have too many interests..ha ha) is dear to my heart and my first few "earthships" (by the way I agree...dumb name...but what the heck, that is the vernacular now for them, or "wofati") where rammed tire and/or rammed earth modalities...I am still "tracking" quite a few, and all in all...if not in an arid region, I just do not recommend them AT ALL!!! to folks that do not have a HUGE!!!!!!!!! budget and/or lots of skill and knowledge of architecture of this form...

Quote:
How many damp daylight basements have you seen?


Great point time...We call that a "horse shoe" basement (and if we ever do "basements"...which I dislike anyway...because I don't use concrete hardly ever) we do a "horseshoe" or "walk out" basement. These do tend to be much drier...when!...well done and the house above is permeable and draft proof...not airtight!

Quote:
Was the moisture issue due to improper site prep? Built in a swamp with poor or no drainage incorporated? So many question should be asked before blame is placed on a cause/effect.


I agree, however even with great drainage, proper location (a swamp would just be plain silly I think all would agree on that) and everything else, most of these "modern" "Earth Dung Out" attempts at fossorial architecture have huge issues in non-arid regions...

Quote:
Today's modern super insulated tight houses will have horrible moisture issues, if air circulation is not addressed.


Also very true...and...why I don't go down that path at all...

Wofati, or any of the traditional methods of Walipini, Bikooh, or related structures from around the glob built underground do have great potential when well designed and thought out...

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: Jay White Cloud] #33432 02/08/16 12:48 AM
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Hi David,

Quote:
Note that I'm looking at entire enclosure methods, not simply materials that make up a part of the process.

'Traditional' or 'Natural' Enclosure methods:

Straw Bale
Cobb/brick/wattle-and-daub or other infill (exposed timber inside and out) methods
Just nail some boards to it and call it a day.

Modern or Industrial

SIPs
Wrap and Strap
Larsen Truss
'Exo-framed'

things like that.


Sorry, this is your thread and you take it wherever you like...I think I listed actual "'Traditional' or 'Natural' Enclosure methods:" already and you have repeated some of them hear again.

I will do my best to address/comment on direct questions then...

Quote:
Have you ever run cost analyses of your systems in comparison to others...
.

Yes I have, much of it in the material science literature...

Go to LinkedIn and join some of the professional groups that deal with this if you can, or do PDF searches for published works in this area...

Quote:
I've always kind of viewed wrap and strap as SIP's unaccomplished little brother.


Agreed...they are the same, and the "little brother" is actually the better of the two methods in most facilitations...IF...you support the "airtight" house concept, and employ foams for your insulation medium.

SB (aka strawbale) is a "warp and strap" method in many of its iteration...

Quote:
Most of my efforts have been focused on ways to refine the concept of exo-framing (if there's a better term, please tell me)...
It is bothersome for me to have redundancy in my projects...I've worked on systems relating to wrap and strap, exo-framing, and infill-framing, which leaves only a portion of the framing exposed on the interior.


"Exo-Framing" is as good as any David. I rather like the term, and have read others that used before this to describe any system that not only provides a "thermal diaphragm" for wall and roof, but a method for running wiring and other mechanicals effectively. Wall trusses (aka what some have called Larsen) have been around since the turn of the century in many different forms. It is the system I use and promote, and as far as I know mine (and one manufacture in Germany) are the only "all wood joinery" wall truss systems in use today. They average, at minumum 250mm thick, and go up to 1 metre thick at the largest now in design application. They can rest on a sill or can form a "hung wall" where they are suspended from the rafter tails or the "roof truss" system if one is employed. They also provide easy facilitation for "rainscreen and cold roof" systems which are paramount for longevity in most natural materials.

As for insulation, if I use anything that could be called modern, it would be mineral wool batt or board, and not plastic house wraps or other "retarders" to good permeability and moisture escape from the interstitial zones of "super insulated" structures...

Regards,

j

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33437 02/08/16 03:15 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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I must say I also agree with much of your approach here on this topic, Jay. It is refreshing, pun intended.

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33438 02/08/16 06:55 PM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Thanks Tim!!

I think...all in all...you and I are thinking the same thoughts and are going in the same directions...

Stress Skin Panels (I know the industry disagrees with me...I get emails all the time about that!! ha, ha) is a dead end for timber frames...I don't even like them for "prefab houses."

There are way more "cons" to SIP than there are "pros" when it comes to "actual real world applications." They may be profitable and fast for GC only considering "speed and profit" but the absolutely do not create "better architecture." I know that from watching, and tearing them apart forensically over the past thirty years...

SIPs suffer from so many "ills" I can't even begin to list them all...but heck, what do I know, that's just my experience and opinion...

Blessings,

j

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33439 02/08/16 08:09 PM
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D L Bahler Offline OP
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I'm interested in this conversation, if even it's not quite what I was going for, so do carry on.

I'll never use SIPs myself. Some people think they're great, good for them. GC's want to use them, they're free to. I don't care.

A lot of my concern is putting together information to recommend to GC's what they can do, because I'm marketing to a lot of folks that don't have a lot of TF experience.

I hate foam and tight houses, but a lot of homeowners have bought in to the notion that such is the best way to do things, and so sometimes you have to work with what they want (the customer is not always right, but you always have to make them feel like they are)

In such cases, I would try to sell the GC on wrap and strap and dissuade them from the supposed virtues of SIPs.

For GC's working from a conventional framing standpoint, I steer them to exo-framing.

If people are looking for a high energy performance house, I will point them to a larsen truss type system.

If I were more focussed on building complete houses, I'd love to deal with some of the more interesting methods, but realistically when dealing with GC's, I've got to deal with them on their level. I've got to work within the constraints of what they are used to dealing within. My focus has to be on selling frames, I don't have the time to try and educate everyone and persuade them to my way of thinking.


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Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33440 02/08/16 09:31 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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Well.... sips are great for walk in coolers, at least.

Last edited by TIMBEAL; 02/08/16 09:31 PM.
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