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Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33441 02/09/16 12:04 AM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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I hate foam and tight houses, but a lot of homeowners have bought into the notion that such is the best way to do things, and so sometimes you have to work with what they want (the customer is not always right, but you always have to make them feel like they are)


Hi David,

I agree...except now, I have stopped making my clients "feel like they are" when I know better or my name is attached to something...

Now...if a client wants me to do something out of context or parameters of design that I know (or feel) is "bad practice," I document it and make them sign a waiver that the "choice" was theirs and not mine...Seldom (if ever now) do I get pushed into this position...

The entire concept of "airtight" as being good for anything that involves natural "healthy living" has been a ludicrous notion to me since day one...I won't stop stating that or writing about...Those who disagree...can debate the point all they care too...most of the humans I know "breath air..." and "airtight" is counter to that little aspect of physiology...Building any architecture that doesn't support simple basic physiology is crazy in my book. Heck...even a well built timber frame that is "super insulated" and "draft proof" with permeable wall systems can be stuffy if you don't open a window or door at least once a day...

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If people are looking for a high energy performance house, I will point them to a larsen truss type system.


If I may...Just call them Wall or Roof trussing...

John did not invent (per se) or really change these to much from original designs from decades ago or the concepts of them. He (during the Carter administration) did examine, publish and understand them better than anyone else around at the time...I have corresponded with John (years ago...now retired) and been examining and employing them ever since...as have folks like Robert Riversong.

Lignotrend Wall Trusses are some of the best in the world for an "industry made" form of them, yet site built forms are just as good for the Timberwright wanting to make them.

In my view (being a traditional woodworker anyway) the "all wood joinery" types are superior to any currently on the market or being made...They just compliment what we do, are strong the anything nailed or screwed together and look really nice all on there own...

Let me know if I can add more to the conversation...

Regards,

j

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: TIMBEAL] #33442 02/09/16 12:05 AM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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Well.... sips are great for walk in coolers, at least.


Tim...you don't know how true and funny this is...

Like "pink insulation" many of these "SIP Systems" were originally intended for application in the manufacture of refrigeration units (often in only hot arid locations.)

Guess what!!???

From all I have seen, studied and examined, they work great in these applications. Which of course, are the applications the original designers and material scientists had developed them for...

It's not until "industry" tries to..."MAKE THEM WORK"...(and of course make big profits on) outside of original context that we begin to see issues. Of course this take decades of "real world" application (and failures in the poor consumer's house) that the issues even begin to become apparent...and...it will take several more decades for folks like us "really looking" and examining them (plus consumer complaint and lawsuits) to ever make a significant impact on the SIP industry or use of the SIP concepts.

In the meantime...I will do my little part to make posts like this, share and exchange info, and not recommend them at all to anyone (except...maybe if I have to or I'm forced to on a project...in roof applications ONLY!!!)

Regards,

j

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33443 02/09/16 01:36 AM
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I got one that may be just as funny if not more. You know that "earthship" I was talking about. Well the glass in the front, needs to be two layers with about 4" between the two, and when the sun sets or gets too hot, a bunch of those little white foam balls, the kind cheap coffee cups are made of, are blown into that cavity, insulating the interior from the heat or the cold. The bulk is stored in a room ready for use. It's on some kind of light sensor and or thermometer. There needs to be something to control the static electricity.

Just putting this out on public record so I get credit when it is put into action.

I was sucking up a bunch of cut blue board when this came to me. Kind of like Tesla.http://forums.tfguild.net/images/icons/default/exclamation.gif

Last edited by TIMBEAL; 02/09/16 01:39 AM.
Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33444 02/09/16 02:34 AM
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D L Bahler Offline OP
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Jay, I highly respect your position and were I in your same position, I would take the same stance.
Like I said, though, I want to primarily cut frames and as such my target for advertising is general contractors. So in that case when things go wrong with the enclosure, it's not my neck on the chopping block. I don't want to say 'I don't care' because I do, but I'm not in the same position as you.

I'll gladly steer contractors away from anything using foam if I think they'll listen, but I don't want to ruin a good professional relationship with a potential customer or sour possible repeat work by telling a GC how to do his own job.
Having been on the other side of the fence, on the end of things that was decided by someone not doing the actual work, I respect the GC's freedom.


Was de eine ilüchtet isch für angeri villech nid so klar.
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Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33445 02/09/16 03:49 AM
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Actually, the funny thing is that even I use SIP enclosures I have really moved beyond liking to use them. I don't think that it is impossible to make them a workable system, but they have too many negatives which make them undesirable. They are an extremely dependent, overly complicated system. As it has been pointed out, they are more like space ships than houses. There is a bit of a vacuum for immediate alternatives, so unfortunately I am going to have to stick with it for the next couple years.

I'm really not sure that wrap and strap really takes any of the fundamental problems of SIPS out of the equation. It is a fundamentally similar concept but where it gains in affordability, it picks up issues in redundancy and may be more vulnerable to moisture issues because of more variable quality control. I would really only consider wrap and strap suitable for perhaps an occasionally heated out building, but I really just don't like it.

What I would really like to pursue in the next year or two is a "chip and slip" system of non load bearing wall with lime plaster. My local area has lots of clay and wood resource, so it seems likely. Straw bale has always given me the willies, I think it's sort of like SIPs, perhaps theoretically possible to get right, but riddled with potential issues. The clay slip in the "chip and slip" has the advantage of isolating the organic material, greatly reducing the food, fire, and habitat potential. I'm not sure about the roof, SIPS panels or Larsen trusses may be the easiest system to apply. I would like to eliminate the panels eventually, because the roof is much more vulnerable to problems than the walls.
Does anyone have any first hand experience with chip or straw slip? I would be interested to hear. Although, I suspect I will just have to start experimenting myself. The only thing that I'm a bit dubious of figuring out myself is the plastering. That seems to be the sort of thing better learned first hand.

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: Hylandwoodcraft] #33446 02/09/16 07:57 AM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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...the funny thing is that even I use SIP enclosures I have really moved beyond liking to use them.


Many (most?) of us have all been there Sean...as it takes a while to really take a strong position on SIPs. I now have the luxury of such strong convictions, yet as David pointed out (rightfully so) that not all have such ability, but still would like to create and sell great frames...

I would not turn down a contract myself...but I would make them sign a "knowledge waiver" on this topic if they chose a SIP...That way, if the frame was damaged in some fashion by them I am held harmless...and...I have done my due diligence in providing the best info I can as I understand it...

Quote:
I don't think that it is impossible to make them a workable system, but they have too many negatives which make them undesirable.


Agreed...

I can think of a number of "make them work" methods, but in the end...compared to other modalities...They simply lose...and lose badly...

Quote:
There is a bit of a vacuum for immediate alternatives, so unfortunately I am going to have to stick with it for the next couple years.


On that view, I may not be able to agree...

Timber frames as we actually know them today have been around for over 7000 years...The number of methods to insulated them, be it mass or loft or combination are just as old...Many in the industry have either forgotten this or not really take the time to delve as deeply into it as they should (just a view..)

"Wall Trusses" (not an original concept) and/or infill systems, and the like all lend themselves well to many natural/traditional insulative modalities...Many being quite cost effective not only for the owner of the project but the facilitator as well...

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I'm really not sure that wrap and strap really takes any of the fundamental problems of SIPS out of the equation.


If using foam...I couldn't agree more.

Wiring might have gotten a wee bit easier, but that is about it...All in all, it's a wash between W&S and SIP...

Quote:
What I would really like to pursue in the next year or two is a "chip and slip" system of non load bearing wall with lime plaster.


"Light Cobb Infill" modalities (aka clay chip slip forming) again is not a new concept at all...Many are "rebranding it" but the concept of a "light cobb" (aka Clay- Slip Clay Straw/Chip-Cob (Cobb-Clom)-Tabya-Adobe-Bousillage-(Doheki=daub), etc etc) have been with us since the first timber frames in one for or another depending on culture and location...

I think you will love it, and as the system modalities spread and gain in popularity, they will improve even more...These "light cobb" methods are very versatile, and give us the best of mass and loft in one system...I highly recommend them to "natural insulation" inclined folks that wish to "DIY" some of their project. It is also another system the lends itself well to "wall trusses." The list of positives, from all I have seen, consulted on, and examined are bountiful...Bousillage is probably one of the oldest forms of it in this country, with even Indigenous cultural application in architecture...

Quote:
Straw bale has always given me the willies, I think it's sort of like SIPs, perhaps theoretically possible to get right, but riddled with potential issues.


That's kind of funny... smile crazy In an odd way...

I call SB the SIP of the "natural insulation...

In the right environment, they work great, and if the structure is designed well (and the bales are close at hand and in GREAT!!! shape) this system works marvelously...Unfortunately, many now (most??) have all types of issues built into them...and the reason I do not recommend them...unless very succinct parameters are available...

Regards,

j

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 02/09/16 08:01 AM.
Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33447 02/09/16 07:57 AM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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I want to primarily cut frames and as such my target for advertising is general contractors. So in that case when things go wrong with the enclosure, it's not my neck on the chopping block. I don't want to say 'I don't care' because I do, but I'm not in the same position as you.


I can more than respect that David...

I know some think the Timberwrights just cutting frames and selling them should take more responsibility than that...

However, I think they (those that may judge this) may miss the daunting aspects of trying to "police" over other people's choices (good, bad or netural.) As such, I see nothing wrong with you "just selling frames" and leaving it to the GC to shoulder the burden of "good practice" (as it might actually be) for how your frames are treated in regards to the "thermal envelope." The best someone in your position can do is share what you know and hope the "timber frame consumer" chooses wisely...That way you have done your "due diligence" but the ultimate choice is left to them...I support you in it...as least they are in a well built structure with great "bones" that can always be salvaged later if need be...

Regards,

j

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33448 02/09/16 12:49 PM
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TIMBEAL Offline
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I have a couple straw bale buildings, one small 8'x14' and another cabin 16'x16' The small one is just storage. The square building is a living cabin. It always smells of old straw, not moldy but just old straw. It also has mice and squirrels in it. they can't make it into the living space just the straw. Due diligence needs to be take to enclose the whole cavity to prevent access of vagrants.I have heard some are dipping the whole bale in a clay slip then stacking. I would give this a go next time.

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33449 02/09/16 01:17 PM
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Jay White Cloud Offline
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You nailed Tim...

I don't recommend SB but that doesn't mean I don't like it or would build one for/with the right project and people...

There are just key elments that must be addressed...

NO OPC CONCRETES!! in contact with the straw at all...

EXCELLENT physical pest control measures...

Breathable natural plasters, and/or good ventilation around the bales...

At least 600mm of of the ground in all areas including arid regions...

At least a 800mm roof overhang...

Get those done and it can work, though typically other insulation forms will be less expensive and easier to facilitate (but not always...)

Re: A Convenient Resource for Enclosure Methods [Re: D L Bahler] #33450 02/09/16 01:18 PM
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Hylandwoodcraft Offline
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I guess I should have clarified, Jay. I meant not there were a dearth of alternative methods in general, just in my specific location and circumstance. What I meant was that it will take some time of experimentation and building new skills to be able to consider offering customers a viable alternative. Thanks for the input, it's always appreciated!

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