Hi all,

I've recently finished a qualification in carpentry here in France (By way of doing things the wrong way round, I built my timber-framed house first!). And we are continually pushed to be 'rentable'. That is to say, that our time is productive enough to be valuable. This means hand tools only when a power tool cannot do the work, circular saw for nearly everything. And every serious workshop above a certain size (namely everyone with at least one employee) has a chain mortiser. Generally either the LyonFlex P43 (which is frankly a back-breaking beast), or the Mafell or Protool (now Festool) unit.

And yet I notice from the numerous posts and videos from this group that many quite serious (as viewed from over here) timber framing houses are routinely mortising with hand tools. Either boring machines, or eventually auger bits on a drill, always finished by hand with a chisel or slick.

Which leads to my question. Is it a difference in labour cost, or in the client's perceived value of a timber frame (and thus, the price tag that goes with it) that "allows" you all to use such tools, or have I just misread the situation and are you all secretely punching holes left-right-and centre with your Mafell LS 103s while producing YouTube videos about the joys of hand finishing mortises?

In essence, how do you bill the time spent per mortise?

Jon

Chain mortisers are a love hate situation for me. They can rough out a big mortise in knotty oak pretty fast, but there is always just a bit of cleanup in the bottom/ front face that takes a lot of time. When you figure in the huge cost of the machine (SwissPro), plus maintenance and replacement parts, I don't think they are really as much of an advantage as a lot of people think. Being efficient with hand tools and selecting good timbers and laying out round defects is part of being a good timber framer, in my opinion. Buying a lot of expensive tools so you can just blast a bunch of rough holes in low grade timbers is an indication that one has stopped their journey towards being a highly skilled craftsmen. I know that will upset some people, so everyone just needs to remember it's just my opinion. I know that at the end of the day my arms will be a lot more tired running a boring machine over a CM, but my back won't hurt as much as if I had been running the mortiser.

Here is an 8 minute brace pocket, housing included. The boring took less time than measuring and layout.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDNxFR4U2rc

Here is the modified boring machine, I'm still tempted by the chain mortisers, and after that it will be a cnc machine, when to stop?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17h_be9zjNo

@Dave Shepard: Here there is no cleanup. It helps that the standard tenon in traditional French carpentry is 30mm (so a bit over 1") which corresponds nicely to the standard chain size. Tenons are rounded by hand on their long edges to ensure that they don't foul the rounded bottom of the mortise which is, in any case usually cut to 75 / 80mm depth for a 70mm tenon. In modern construction we're usually working with treated commercial pine 75x225mm (referred to as an 8/23 and very roughly equivalent to a 3"x9").

I wholly agree with the cost issue (factor in also the fear factor of the chainsaw). But that is factored out here by the time saving. Since we're not 'roughing out' but just cutting with the mortiser, our time saving is very real. To take TIMBEAL's example from above: Let's say that 8 mins is a realistic time for cleaning out a bored mortise, and that boring that mortise took another 4 mins (from memory, that seems generous), that's 12 mins from layout to mortise being cut. I would count maybe 2 mins to set up the mortiser (assuming that your using a guide and not just freehanding), and another 3 to cut it. So a time saving of 7 mins per mortise. For a standard truss there are at least 6 mortises so 42mins per truss. Let's say 3 trusses in a house (Fairly normal for a house with "traditional" roof carpentry), so just over 2 hours. At a total cost of employment per hour of around 20€ for a newly qualified carpenter (just to pay the wages), that's at least 40€ extra labour per house. Each extra minute taken per mortise costs an extra 6€ per house.

What I've been wondering for some time (and am now wondering out loud) is what is the fundamental difference between our countries that makes for this difference in working practice? Is it simply employment cost? Or is it a more subtle difference in attitude.

Please don't take this as a criticism. I'm trying (in my own way) to push a more "artisanal" model where the work is valued not simply for its cost, but for how it was made. That is to say, that there is a value for the future owner in knowing the care and precision that went into the cutting of a mortise, even if they will never see the mortise itself.

@TIMBEAL: Already watched nearly all of your videos over the last few years. I'm more tempted by a modified boring machine, than by a chain mortiser, but a few years of trying to sell this idea to clients may cause me to drift off-piste on this one.

I figured you had seen these videos, Jon, I couldn't resist posting them.

One aspect to consider is layout methods, material at hand, and how the two come together. All my material is sawn on site, some hewing, too. It is rough stock compared to treated commercial pine, you are working with. I'm assuming it is surfaced on 4 sides and true.

In my work and others I am sure, I can pull a log from the woods, saw it, and incorporate it into a frame all in the same day. Do any of the shops in your area perform work on green fresh sawn timber? I suspect that is so, but the majority of the work you see is it prepared material? Sometimes this rough timber sits in the yard and you will find twist and other effects time has on timber, do you find chain mortisers will perform cut after cut at the time frame you mentions without hesitation? A frame we put up this spring had near 1" twist in it from end to end. How about extra waney timber, how does that affect the workability of a chain mortiser?

As for time, I try to find other ways to still offer a traditional frame with short cut joinery decisions built into the system, from types of joints used or not used, as well as short cuts in working the joinery. I think the case could be made that if you are working with smooth, slick material your joint execution will need to be top notch to bring the project together, while working in the rough things are still exact yet there is the allowable fudge that will not be as noticeable The two outcomes will be similar but different and to compare on a price of cutting joints alone may lead one down a road that doesn't lead to any destination.

Hi Jon,
I think you're seeing a skewed sample on the Forums; people who are interested in the craft of timber framing are going to participate here and are perhaps more prone to using hand tools. As Director of the Guild for 11 years I got to know most of the companies out there and I would guess that 95% of them use chain or hollow chisel mortisers or CNC. One high end company and highly productive near me still prefers drills (Milwaukee Hole Hawgs). Works for them; go figure. By the way, when I use a Mafell mortiser I bore 5/8" deeper to get past the curve of the chain so there is no cleanup.

Thanks, Will. I do believe that sums it up. From my stance, I know I am in the minority of cutting shops out there.

This conversation fascinates me.

I've noticed the same thing working with Swiss Carpenters. Their shops all utilize very nice tools -mortisers, planers, saws, etc. and even special saws are set up to cut out tenons in a single pass (a machine with 5 blades, 1 cuts the overall length, 2 cut the shoulders, and 2 cut the width of the tenon)
And they also all make use of meticulously planed and dimensioned timbers (although they still use layout methods that don't assume wood is perfectly dimensioned)

I don't get the impression that, at least in the regions I deal with, they are driven with this same productivity mindset, however.

I'm honestly drawn to both ends of this endless debate. I love to work with hand tools, but I also love to employ methods that render the final costs low.
But I also have observed that cost isn't the only consideration. Time is an important factor in some situations.

Many larger production shops need to be able to crank out frames in a few weeks time, some shops have the ability to take a couple months to get the job done. For the production company, the overall per job cost may be higher running power tools, but that is offset by the time factor. They make less profit off a job by using expensive tools, but they make up for that by running more jobs through their shop in a year.

I applaud the carpenters who can find the spot in the market that lets them sit back and enjoy the process more, but I understand the businessman who is driven to cut out the 'luxuries' of craftsmanship and the romance of working by hand and put power tools to use.

Me personally, I employ a mixture of the two. Some things I enjoy doing by hand and some things I'd rather not (I'll admit, I'm not too crazy about hand saws, but I love to whack a chisel or swing an axe) I'm also in search of the way that is most cost efficient to me, and therefore to the customer, that means finding the perfect balance between hand and machine processes.

I'm drawn to the economy of machine methods, but I'm also (maybe a bit more strongly) drawn to to simple joy of the traditional processes. I'm the kind of guy that could be happy in either situation (I happen to also like machines)

I don't consider working with hand tools a luxury or romantic. My first timber trestle took my 10.5 hours to cut. I'm sure many of you have seen it, and I'll try to add a photo if I have one loaded. There are eight 1.5"/1.5" joints and four 2"/2" joints for the anchorbeams. 20 peg holes/pegs and four wedge slots/wedges. I used a boring machine for the 1.5" stuff and a T-auger for the 2". We cut one of these benches at work last month and used the SwissPro mortiser, circ saws and power drills. We eliminated the 8 pegs at the anchorbeams and we managed to trim exactly minus 4.5 hours off of the build time. That's right. 15 hours with the fanciest hand held tools money can buy.

Jon Senior, a single mortise is not a good representation of the time it takes to cut mortises. You need to do all your layout at once, then bore everything on a timber, or timbers, then do your cleanup. I did a pictorial of boring and cleaning up a 1.5"x6" mortise 4" deep in white pine. Including taking the shots and setting up the camera, it was under 9 minutes. In a continuous mortising setup, it would be less. I estimated on the last frame of 50/50 white oak/white pine, the chain mortiser might have saved 3-4 hours. Average the labor saving over the life of the chains and maintenance, and I don't see it as getting ahead very far.

I don't find it romantic, either Dave. I didn't have much of a choice when I first started, unless you count running a generator a choice. You can outfit yourself for under $1000 and have a sweet selection of hand tools to work with. What does a chain mortiser run, $5000? That is just the morticer.

Are you saying it took longer with power tool, to cut the trestles?

Yes, 50% longer. I don't know why, the other guy is very competent with power tools. The SwissPro is at least $5k, puss extra bar and chain sets. We have the big bandsaw, planer and chainsaw contraption, over $20k worth of stuff. You can buy a hydraulic sawmill for that.

You can buy 3 Makitas for the price of a Swiss Pro or Mafell. I don't see what is wrong with a Makita.

The idea of a chain mortiser is speed. The cross grain mortisers are way faster and easier to use. Set the fence, plunge the left end, then the right end, and hog the middle.

I think that DL Bahler stated my own position very nicely.
While I admittedly do not feel the same affection for my power tools as I do for my hand tools, I respect them as important additions. (Although I do have a 100 year old Crescent bandsaw, that makes my heart skip whenever I walk past it!)
In my shop all the roughing work is done by circular saw, mortiser and router. All the clean up is done by chisel, slick and plane. It ends up pretty balanced between the two.
I feel from my experience that with an intelligent mix of the old and new; combined with proper workflow and procedures, gives the best overall efficiency and value. A little while ago I cut and assembled three king post trusses spanning 28' in about 24 hours. All the joinery was fully housed, drawbored, and the joinery was dollar bill tight with no slop in the mortises. I really don't see how I could replicate that with hand tools alone.
It is completely possible that I haven't acquired the proficiency in hand tools to be able to see their fullest potential. It is something that I would be very interested in. Believe me, if I could buy a bunch over Miller's Falls boring machines and make the switch I would do so in a heartbeat!
This is an interesting topic, and one I have been curious about for some time.

Are you saying that you couldn't replicate the accuracy with hand tools? That is surprising to me. I find they are much more accurate than a circ saw gone wild. Even new Makita saws (8 1/4") won't cut square. Maybe other brands are more reliable.

I think it was mentioned above, but there are some areas where hand tools really shine over the power tools, and that is on hewn, scribed wonky stuff. I can shim a boring machine in a couple of seconds and go to town. That's a lot harder with a mortiser that wants to pull itself to a corner to maintain registration, and that corner may not be remotely square.

Dave, you guys must have been standing around goo gooing over the power tool and not spending time cutting wood.

Yes, another point, when plumb line scribing you have mortises that may be skewed and shoulder cuts that are not square, a hand saw makes a nice cut that needs no chasing with a chisel. And no or fewer time consuming housings and reductions.

Another aspect to hand tools vs power is the safety factor. There is alway a chance of slicing some flesh but skill saw kick back is never a pleasant thing.

If I was to make the jump to a chain mortiser I would take on the cross grain version. The Makita is not where I would want to be if I made the switch. Cost be damned.

Back to the romanticism, being valentine's day and all, I think it is the intrinsic aspect of power tools that some men lean toward.

There is a fatigue issue as well, especially for me. Listening to power tools all day, even with ear protection, really can wear you down. Fine dust blowing around is also bad news.

Not that accuracy is the problem, but speed. I know that a beam borer with a good sharp bit will bore surprisingly quickly through quality timber, but I really don't know that I could match the speed of a German mortiser. That may be because I don't know all the "tricks". What do you find to be your most expediting techniques with a beam borer?
And yes, there is no comparison between the speed of a cross grain mortiser and the Makita. I would say the Germans are two to three times as fast. I still like my Makita to take to jobsites though.

I've used a Mafell and yes it is faster. I don't really concern myself with speed, if I did I wouldn't be timber framing. The Mafell is also a lot lighter than the Makita. I'm just saying that the Makita does what you need it to do for a lot less money. I also mainly use planed timbers.

The boring machine bores to the exact depth needed, with a flat bottom. The boring takes the bulk of the time, but cleanup can be very fast. Like 30 seconds to get the triangles on the sides and then one straight down shot on each end to finish. Also, you don't have to adjust your design to accommodate the mortiser. Like Will said, you can go an extra bit to eliminate the curve on the bottom, but usually the machine won't bore that deep. If you have a 1" housing, then you only get 4 3/4" of actual mortise depth, and it takes a lot longer to clean out that curve to get it than it does to clean up a boring machine mortise. One place a mortiser shines is with through mortises. If you can punch through from both sides, then there is almost no cleanup.

There are a couple of things I like about the mortiser. Ours will bore very straight ends on the mortise, and the far side line is also usually very crisp. The near side gets blown out, and is usually tapered at the bottom needing cleanup. I've experimented with running the chain loose, which helps, but is not consistent.

Another gripe of mine regarding power tools is what I call the power tool mentality, which is the compulsion to have every part of the frame on horses at the same time. This drives me nuts, especially is someone puts two timbers on the same horse. Unless you have an acre and a half, then you are constantly fighting for room to work. I'm an axe man, and it really sucks to have to reach across a timber to get to one far enough away to chop a housing. There's another pet peave, the "death by a thousand cuts", as I call it, where someone does a darn good display of singlehandedly supporting the saw blade industry by trying to kerf a tenon or housing to death. I can rough chop a housing or tenon with an axe faster than you can kerf with a circ saw.

Of course this is just my experience and opinion. I know it doesn't work for everyone. I know some people that just aren't comfortable working with an axe to close tolerances. In my personal work, there is no way I could afford to tool up with power tools. I cut small frames, and they wouldn't gross enough to buy a mortiser, and I don't want to think about how many I would have to cut just to break even, never mind actually become profitable with one.

It would be cool to see some videos you may have, Jay.

When you bring up the price of these chain mortisers, I am interested, yet I see a price swing of over half the cost in these Swiss units, twice as much. If someone was just wanting to cut simple mortices, max through tenons in 14" stock which version would be the best choice?

What would you say a full on power shop would expend in cash for a nice set of power tools, Jay?

I think the turning point comes into play with scales of economy. The small shop will run with very little overhead. If a small shop is run 1-3 guys, turning out 1-3 frames a year, to make the investment in quality power tools would be tricky choice but if the shop was shooting for 3 times that, it would be a simple choice. It soon becomes a large investment, from computer programs to dust handling, and material handling aspects, the building you cut in, heat, you know...stuff like that. I suspect it would easily range into $500,000 At which point I alway have to ask if it is worth that effort. Will I be sitting in the office 10 hours a day, with a crew on the floor? Is that my goal? No, it isn't. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McvCJley78A&list=FLf0Typ7X7PYlWmlxHMzc5Ew&index=77

I wouldn't be making a very good case if I quoted $1000 for a used up old chain morticer, so I went with the known and expected number.:)

I was thinking about wear and tear on the body with hand tools. Sure mortisers can be heavy to lug, but they don't have the repetitive motion of boring machines and hand saws.
There absolutely is a place for both hand and power tools in my opinion. As with most issues I think that finding the right balance is critical. I think it is possible to find distortion on either extreme end of the spectrum. For example, I saw someone on a forum making the assertion that pitsawing is a reasonable way to convert logs into boards as opposed to a chain saw of bandsaw mill. In my mind, this is as off base as taking the human element out of timber framing with a CNC machine.
To be clear, I'm glad that there are guys like Timbeal and Dave out there who are able to justify nearly exclusive hand tool use.
As far as overall cost, I have a pretty well equipped shop, with both power and hand tools, but I did not pay full price for most of it. I've always kept a lookout for deals and bought it when I had the cash on hand. I probably have $200,000 invested in tools and equipement but I'm not making payments on any of it. Of course, I didn't buy a brand new $35,000 Toyota fork lift, I have a 59 International with a fork mast that I picked up for $2,400. If I had taken out a huge loan to start my business I would already be bankrupt! And if not bankrupt, in perpetual servitude to the ratrace!

I have to say I am a little perplexed. I see the framers that use only hand tools say that they produce nice frames. But I get the impression that they think they can only produce nice frames with power tools by going out and buying the most expensive power tools they can find. Right now I have a Makita chain mortiser and I am a one man shop. I work at a very relaxed pace and I cut and raised 5 frames last year and have 4 scheduled for this year. Would a faster chain mortiser really pay for itself? Now, if I had employees and they could cut 6 mortises an hour compared to say 3 with the Makita it probably wouldn't take long before a Mafell or SwissPro payed for itself.
Here is another example that I weigh all the time. I use Bosch 6" random orbit sanders and I usually have to buy a new one every year. They are half the cost of a Festool. The Bosch has a 1 year warranty and the Festool has a 2 year. I just can't make that leap to the Festool. I just ordered a new Bosch and bought an additional 2 year warranty, so I'll see how that works out.

I started out with a Makita mortiser, a 10" circ saw, drill and a bunch of hand tools. It is absolutely viable to cut frames that way if you are a solo operator. I think that a good framer knows how to get the results out of what they have. The tools don't make the quality(but sometimes they do help). A Makita mortiser might make perfect sense for your situation. The one downside to the German mortisers is that you have change out bars for 1.5" and 2" mortises. Therefore it makes sense to own two so you don't have to keep switching. If there are a few guys in the shop, this will pay for itself quickly. In your case, probably not.

Observing the conversation, I rest in the conclusion that what is really important is that individuals find the setup that works for their situation and their preferences.

There are a lot of things being brought up that are entirely subjective -matters of preference and opinion. Those are important, you need to follow your preferences to be effective (Don't try to fit into someone else's box)

There are a lot of things brought up that are situational -matters such as material being worked with (rough hewn or sawed, planed, dimensioned, etc) size of the operation etc.

Then there are a lot of thing being brought up that have more to do with the philosophy of the business in question -size of the shop, production rate, etc.

My logical mind wants to come up with a sort of equation to describe how these all fit together. From that standpoint I see a curve with small shops on one end, where a lot of power tools are not going to be cost effective, to big shops that run at high production and high volume where hand tool methods are not efficient.

Yes, if you go one-on-one, you can probably beat a power tool with hand tools. The strength I see in power tools is the ability to get things set up and churn out a LOT of things at once. The Shops I've visited in Switzerland, that's how they work. They set up to cut all their tenons, or to at least cut a whole lot of them at once. They set and spend all day just cutting mortises, etc.

I realize a lot of us (myself included) simply don't want to be in that position. I'm a big fan of efficiency, but I'm also a fan of the process. Again, that is romanticism if we use the literal definition of the word. And that's not an insult at all (the word is sadly so badly misused so often today). People like Dave and Time take an obviously Romantic (think in the sense of idealism, not foolish love) approach -they WANT to stay in the situation that favors hand tools and hand methods, and have successfully done so. They are pursuing a specific ideal.

Others take a more 'practical' approach, where they are more concerned with volume, time, and efficiency.

So going back to the original topic,

I have observed in my travels that Americans tend to have a more Romantic or Idealistic approach to things (think of the popularity of rustic furniture or houses, old industrial styles and decorations, etc. These are all built on a certain idealism). That doesn't mean we are the only people in the world that do it, but it does seem to be a bit more common here.

I also think the lack of a true guild structure (the TFG not being a factual guild in the sense of the old European guilds) affects things. In Europe you see the trades more or less controlled by the guilds, and they govern how businesses operate. In America that system does not exist, making it easier for people to arrive at their own interpretation of the craft.

Wow. I opened a real can'o'worms here.

With reflection, one significant different is the layout method. Square rule is unheard of here, and when you start explaining to French carpenters about housing almost every joint they look at you like you're crazy.



The above is an example of a classic modern french roof ("charpente traditionelle". As apposed to "charpente industrielle" which refers to stick-frame trusses). I worked on a near identical structure with the author of the above image. In 5 days we lifted (by hand) all the timber to the 1st floor. Laid out and marked everything. Cut the joints and mortises (draw bored pegs), and raised (with the aid of a crane which we pushed to its limits) 3 frames, and ridge beam (Davy installed the purlins and rafters later on his own as I was only on a 1 week work placement with him).

To explain, the French still draw out a 1:1 "épure" on the ground, position the timbers on it, and mark the positions of the various joints by consequence. So for that frame we retraced the épure (which had faded a little over the weekend), then laid out our timbers using offcuts as spacers. Davy then marked out the various joints and the two of us cut them. The timbers for each truss were then test fitted over the épure, adjusted if necessary and the tenons were marked for draw boring. Finally the tenons were bored, and all three trusses were built in a stack ready to be lifted. From memory we probably spent at least 1 day moving wood up to the first floor. And we spent 1 day with the crane lifting the frames into place. So that leaves 3 days (21 hours) in which we laid out, marked up, cut, test fitted and assembled the structure.

Heavy timber construction, ie. Timber Framing is nearly unheard of here. Our house is considered bizarre by most people who see it. Standard construction is a 1 1/2 storey blockwork structure with gable ends onto which in most cases a stick frame roof is nailed into place, but in which some clients demonstrate their taste for quality by commissioning a charpente traditionelle. And even then, rarely is much of that structure exposed to the inside, the insulation generally occupies the depth of the purlins leaving just a few braces and partial king posts exposed to the inside.

Historically, regardless of wood species, a tenon is 30mm wide and 70mm deep. Having worked on a frame dating from the 18th century I can attest that this standard long predates the existance of the chain mortiser. Which does suggest that the bar sizes common over here are a consequence of the practice and not the other way around.

Makita make a cross-grain mortiser (KC100) which is superb except for a guide which has a habit of slipping. The with-the-grain model is rarely sold here. I've only met one carpenter who's ever used one and he'd never touch it again. It's just not considered fast enough.

Clearly all of this relates to square cut timbers that are true (or true enough to be usable). All of this goes out the window when working with twisted wood and scribing, although even there I suspect habit would lead most to make supports for the timber and mortiser.

I'll try and post more on French carpentry when I get a chance, if there's interest. I do find the juxtaposition of an incredible tradition of drawing "l'art du trait", and the push for fast-cut treated pine frames fascinating... if a little depressing.

Hi Tim,



I do need to do more of this and I have been pushed more and more in that direction as of late by students and colleagues. I am a bit "non photogenic" and actually try to stay out from in front of cameras and video devices...Perhaps a habit from the Marines, and/or just feeling self conscious...

But...you are correct, I do need to do more in this area...



The Swiss Pro lines were unstable, I agree...

All these large tools are starting to settle down a bit with price swings and we may see more coming into the country over the next 5 years as the global market (and interest in timber framing) expands. I have also noted that with the expansion of forums like this, and other internet exchanges; in concert with "language translation programs" we may see some of the great Korean and Japanese tools start to come back to the North American market. Makita and Hitachi make great "chisel mortisers" for timber framing, and Makita use to sell theirs here...It may now be coming back, along with other interesting items as well...

As for 14" stock...and considering the average small shops production, I would still probably recommend the Makita if only one tool is going to be the mortiser for the shop. $$ to work performed, this tool still "rules the roost" when well understood and outfitted. Very close second (if only one mortiser is going to be supporting a small shop) I would pick the "Swiss 3 in 1 Chain Mortiser" if purchasing something now.

Festool makes several marvelous chain mortisers and these will be here in the next few years...as will probably some of the Japanese and Korean offerings...



Hmmm, that is really a tough one Tim. I would be doing a disservice (I think?) if I gave out vague an idea. I do better understanding the demands on the shop. Many small one don't need much and can get by with as little as $4000 to $8000. You move up as demand spreads, or in our case...the cooperative grows, because as a collective we have a great many tools to through at a project one of us brings to the table to "chew on."



Tim, that is a huge amount of money, and I doubt I would ever get there myself in "one shop" but perhaps in the collective we would achieve that. One of use in the New York area on "the farm" will be building a 60'x60' shop this year, and we will probably be adding a another band mill and swing blade to the Wisconsin group in the next 18 months. No one shop within our cooperative group of Timberwrights will ever come close to $500K!! That is more like the shops that have gone the "Hum-Dinger" computer operated monsters...Now that to me is overkill and is not something I like or promote in general, but understand there place in the scheme of things.

Hi Sean,

Now that I am closer to 60 than I was 50, I can say with some reasonable authority, of the wear on my body from carving in both timber and stone that "hand tools" can and do have. It will kick the chronological ass of human physiology!!!

It keeps me in shape yet at the same time, any "repetitive task" will have an impact and swinging a mallet to chiesel, be it stone or timber, will (over time) cause immense wearing of the body. Anything to mitigate and/or ease that is a asset to lasting longer in doing this wonderful craft...

Mike, we often joke amongst us about if we had to have only "one Festool" which one would we pick...

Believe it or not, the 150 mm Rotex Sander (w/vacuum of course) is alway at the top of the list...Once you take that leap, you probably will never go back. I have been "cursed and threatened" (in a joking fashion) for having "ruined" colleagues lives by getting them addicted to the wonders of Festool engineering...

The Domino 500 and 700 I have lent out to those with the skills to appreciate them have made one window and door Carpenter sell or not replace $70K in tools and I have heard of many others going down the same route with this companies offerings of tools.

The concept of "tool through material" vs "material through tool" is what sets many companies like Festool apart from the larger industrial tool concepts. I kinda look at it like the hand tool mentality they have with a "power assist" added...

I should add that all my tooling costs include all the other construction and enclosure tools that I use as well. TF tools and support are about half.
But regardless, DL Bahler is right, it is rather relative to each set of circumstances and priorities. There is no "perfect way" to do it, but only to try to find a way that best balances the intangible human element with the time and money constraints of production. These elements will certainly balance out differently for different people in different circumstances.

I do agree with Jay about Festool. I just got the Domino 700 and it really is a remarkable tool. It absolutely replaces stationary tools many times it's size and price.

I am only 30, but I am already aware that this profession will take it's toll. It's a physically intensive job no matter what, compounded by my tendency to go "all in" physically when I am working. I definitely have an appreciation for things that I feel will keep me going longer.

Sean...every time you reach for that 700...new ideas will "pop" into your head...

It is just large enough to actually do light timber framing if you understand some of the vernacular styles and systems. We are already employing in in "key beam" designs, and other toggling methods to arrest timber rotation challenges in some joint designs and species of wood. In many Asian joints (mainly Japanese) the four corners of timber around a tenon would have these small "toggles" to stop such rotation. This tool makes that brilliantly simple.

When you move then into "all wood flooring" systems (especially with green wood) it again shows itself to be an unmatched tool...

Enjoy...

While talking age, Hylandwoodcraft, you was 10 when I first started working timber. I'm a little behind Jay in age.

One of those Festool thingys would be cool in a one inch version. When will the mortising industry put out a tool like that? Free tenons galore!

My 500,000 dollar enterprise is a decent price, from scratch to going. You might even throw in a work truck, one of those four door cabs with a fancy rack, kind.

I have had two Bosch 6" sanders, they are offal, so dusty. Most frames are finished with nothing, no sanding, oiling, just the wood. It's one of those time savers. I also dropped anchor sealing the joints. We have hand planed surfaces, but my favorite finish is nothing. Although I have never tried the burned and wire brushed venue.

The taking a toll, that is why I try to find short cuts in the work. I don't pound a chisel to waste wood off a tenon, all axe, I have been known to stick a piece back on the mill and saw the tenon, the big long through kind. I do still pound out the corners with a corner chisel, I know some punch the ends in one go with a full chisel, I had one get stuck once. Getting at the right height is critical, sometimes I stand on a block. I also tried to adapt a few different ideas in easing the corners, from a stand up version I pushed with my foot to an air driven corner chisel, but my air compressor and gun is too small. Most mortice work is done with a slick and well placed mortice locations. Finding the right bits for your boring machine is also critical, along with the right gear ratio. When hand boring I tend to go more 1-1/2", instead of 2". I still hold the idea of a foot pedaled boring machine like a bicycle.

I also have to admit to sawing bulk braces with a skill saw, sometimes right to the line with only chamfers chiseled on. On a small job with 4 braces I will easily cut with hand saw and split off the waste.

The ability to switch from hand tools to power tool is an advantage if you find yourself working in remote locations.

Some joints may be quicker with hand tools,some, but to keep the pace day in and day out, could be tiring. Depending on how the shop is laid out, Dave mentioned this, perform one task at a time, layout, bore, clean out and bore peg hole, it breaks up the repetivness. PLS helps with this in some ways. I've often wondered instead of powering up the shop keep it hand tool only and just hire on more people to cover the rate. With low overhead the money returns to the workers, instead of going to the tool companies.

I may have missed the point on that one?? (sorry if I did... )

Festool makes two models of this tool. The 500 and the 700. We use the 500 for small furniture, some flooring, etc. while the 700 works all kinds of larger magic...

The toggles sizes range from (we make our own) 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, and 14mm in thickness (single plunge,) and with variable widths either "stock item" called a "domino free tenon" or custom sizes if we care to make them. The depth can be adjusted to 0 all the way up to 70 mm deep. So the range of "toggling" options is pretty broad...



Most of our clients want (and will pay for) a more refined finish of oiling or other treatment. We tend to plane all timbers just to make layout a bit more easy and clean. Actually a new 300 mm Makita planer just arrived today to replace a very only creature from years ago...

We have done a number of Yakisugi wood charring method onto timbers...it is becoming more and more popular for a number of applications.

Hi Jon,
I was thinking about your picture of your roof and what you said about French and American timber framers.
Your photo is actually very similar in nature to what I have seen in old American books on timber framing from the late 1800's, particularly when regarding industrial construction. The use of purlins fully crossing the principal rafters, incorporation of metal hardware when convenient, and a relatively simplified joinery.
I'm supposing that around 1900 the charpente traditionelle and American timber framing tradition would have much closer to being analogous. The French system, because of the conservative nature of the Guild structure kept on a fairly unbroken track with an eye toward function. The Americans followed a much more chaotic path of abandoning and then rediscovering heavy timber construction. This has led to practices which are largely purely innovative or hearken back to older and "purer" forms of timber framing.

I may be crazy, but your picture got me thinking. Nice framing by the way, it would be interesting to see more pictures from over there if you have them.

OK all. Bringing this zombie post back to life:

Before:


After:


Replacement of 2/3rds of the south facing wall of a traditional half-timbered, thatched cottage (Chaumière) here in Normandy with a contemporary take on colombage finished with direct glazing of 11 of the 12 openings created. The masonry and render work is by the client.

I show this because it demonstrates an idea that came to me recently. This style of framing tends to be where the demand lies here in this region and as you can see, the mortise count is fairly high. For a 5m length of single-storey wall, there are 20 draw-bored mortise and tenon joints and certain styles will push this count up higher. This is a fairly high density of mortises.

Also, this project got me thinking lots about the investment in a chain mortiser. Being relatively generous with the estimated time saving, I worked out that I needed at least 18 comparable builds if I kept my pricing the same in order to break even on the purchase, which at my current work load worked out at about 2 years (although this doesn't include the cost of sharpening or replacing the chain). In the end I bought a high quality 30mm bit and will soon be receiving a corner chisel and we'll see where that get's me efficiency-wise.

This old way could be efficient and accurate once a user got proficient. Probably there are limitations - 10 cm seems to be about maximum depth for these mortices but anything under that goes quite fast.
https://vimeo.com/86767783

It's not too clear from the video, do you pre-drill the mortises or do you do the whole thing with the twybil?

I don't pre-drill, just start out with scoring using more tentative cuts with the tool followed by full-on chopping. This, (no equivocation of action) I think is the key to speed - which is the first rationale for morticing this way- and accuracy - the more difficult aspect.