Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Rate Thread
Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Hylandwoodcraft] #33501 02/15/16 08:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 582
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 582
Hi Sean,

Now that I am closer to 60 than I was 50, I can say with some reasonable authority, of the wear on my body from carving in both timber and stone that "hand tools" can and do have. It will kick the chronological ass of human physiology!!!

It keeps me in shape yet at the same time, any "repetitive task" will have an impact and swinging a mallet to chiesel, be it stone or timber, will (over time) cause immense wearing of the body. Anything to mitigate and/or ease that is a asset to lasting longer in doing this wonderful craft...

smile

Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Mike Shenton] #33502 02/15/16 08:08 PM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 582
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 582

Originally Posted By: Mike Shenton
Here is another example that I weigh all the time. I use Bosch 6" random orbit sanders and I usually have to buy a new one every year. They are half the cost of a Festool. The Bosch has a 1 year warranty and the Festool has a 2 year. I just can't make that leap to the Festool.


Mike, we often joke amongst us about if we had to have only "one Festool" which one would we pick...

Believe it or not, the 150 mm Rotex Sander (w/vacuum of course) is alway at the top of the list...Once you take that leap, you probably will never go back. I have been "cursed and threatened" (in a joking fashion) for having "ruined" colleagues lives by getting them addicted to the wonders of Festool engineering...

The Domino 500 and 700 I have lent out to those with the skills to appreciate them have made one window and door Carpenter sell or not replace $70K in tools and I have heard of many others going down the same route with this companies offerings of tools.

The concept of "tool through material" vs "material through tool" is what sets many companies like Festool apart from the larger industrial tool concepts. I kinda look at it like the hand tool mentality they have with a "power assist" added...

Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Jon Senior] #33503 02/15/16 09:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 143
H
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 143
I should add that all my tooling costs include all the other construction and enclosure tools that I use as well. TF tools and support are about half.
But regardless, DL Bahler is right, it is rather relative to each set of circumstances and priorities. There is no "perfect way" to do it, but only to try to find a way that best balances the intangible human element with the time and money constraints of production. These elements will certainly balance out differently for different people in different circumstances.

I do agree with Jay about Festool. I just got the Domino 700 and it really is a remarkable tool. It absolutely replaces stationary tools many times it's size and price.

I am only 30, but I am already aware that this profession will take it's toll. It's a physically intensive job no matter what, compounded by my tendency to go "all in" physically when I am working. I definitely have an appreciation for things that I feel will keep me going longer.

Last edited by Hylandwoodcraft; 02/15/16 09:21 PM.
Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Hylandwoodcraft] #33512 02/16/16 01:06 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 582
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 582
Sean...every time you reach for that 700...new ideas will "pop" into your head...

It is just large enough to actually do light timber framing if you understand some of the vernacular styles and systems. We are already employing in in "key beam" designs, and other toggling methods to arrest timber rotation challenges in some joint designs and species of wood. In many Asian joints (mainly Japanese) the four corners of timber around a tenon would have these small "toggles" to stop such rotation. This tool makes that brilliantly simple.

When you move then into "all wood flooring" systems (especially with green wood) it again shows itself to be an unmatched tool...

Enjoy... laugh

Last edited by Jay White Cloud; 02/16/16 01:07 AM.
Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Jon Senior] #33513 02/16/16 02:09 AM
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
T
TIMBEAL Offline
Member
Offline
Member
T
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,882
While talking age, Hylandwoodcraft, you was 10 when I first started working timber. I'm a little behind Jay in age.

One of those Festool thingys would be cool in a one inch version. When will the mortising industry put out a tool like that? Free tenons galore!

My 500,000 dollar enterprise is a decent price, from scratch to going. You might even throw in a work truck, one of those four door cabs with a fancy rack, kind.

I have had two Bosch 6" sanders, they are offal, so dusty. Most frames are finished with nothing, no sanding, oiling, just the wood. It's one of those time savers. I also dropped anchor sealing the joints. We have hand planed surfaces, but my favorite finish is nothing. Although I have never tried the burned and wire brushed venue.

The taking a toll, that is why I try to find short cuts in the work. I don't pound a chisel to waste wood off a tenon, all axe, I have been known to stick a piece back on the mill and saw the tenon, the big long through kind. I do still pound out the corners with a corner chisel, I know some punch the ends in one go with a full chisel, I had one get stuck once. Getting at the right height is critical, sometimes I stand on a block. I also tried to adapt a few different ideas in easing the corners, from a stand up version I pushed with my foot to an air driven corner chisel, but my air compressor and gun is too small. Most mortice work is done with a slick and well placed mortice locations. Finding the right bits for your boring machine is also critical, along with the right gear ratio. When hand boring I tend to go more 1-1/2", instead of 2". I still hold the idea of a foot pedaled boring machine like a bicycle.

I also have to admit to sawing bulk braces with a skill saw, sometimes right to the line with only chamfers chiseled on. On a small job with 4 braces I will easily cut with hand saw and split off the waste.

The ability to switch from hand tools to power tool is an advantage if you find yourself working in remote locations.

Some joints may be quicker with hand tools,some, but to keep the pace day in and day out, could be tiring. Depending on how the shop is laid out, Dave mentioned this, perform one task at a time, layout, bore, clean out and bore peg hole, it breaks up the repetivness. PLS helps with this in some ways. I've often wondered instead of powering up the shop keep it hand tool only and just hire on more people to cover the rate. With low overhead the money returns to the workers, instead of going to the tool companies.

Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: TIMBEAL] #33514 02/16/16 02:52 AM
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 582
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member
Offline
Member
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 582
Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
One of those Festool thingys would be cool in a one inch version. When will the mortising industry put out a tool like that?


I may have missed the point on that one?? (sorry if I did...crazy )

Festool makes two models of this tool. The 500 and the 700. We use the 500 for small furniture, some flooring, etc. while the 700 works all kinds of larger magic...

The toggles sizes range from (we make our own) 4mm, 5mm, 6mm, 8mm, 10mm, 12mm, and 14mm in thickness (single plunge,) and with variable widths either "stock item" called a "domino free tenon" or custom sizes if we care to make them. The depth can be adjusted to 0 all the way up to 70 mm deep. So the range of "toggling" options is pretty broad...

Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
...my favorite finish is nothing. Although I have never tried the burned and wire brushed venue..


Most of our clients want (and will pay for) a more refined finish of oiling or other treatment. We tend to plane all timbers just to make layout a bit more easy and clean. Actually a new 300 mm Makita planer just arrived today to replace a very only creature from years ago...

We have done a number of Yakisugi wood charring method onto timbers...it is becoming more and more popular for a number of applications.

Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Jon Senior] #33527 02/16/16 09:03 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 143
H
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 143
Hi Jon,
I was thinking about your picture of your roof and what you said about French and American timber framers.
Your photo is actually very similar in nature to what I have seen in old American books on timber framing from the late 1800's, particularly when regarding industrial construction. The use of purlins fully crossing the principal rafters, incorporation of metal hardware when convenient, and a relatively simplified joinery.
I'm supposing that around 1900 the charpente traditionelle and American timber framing tradition would have much closer to being analogous. The French system, because of the conservative nature of the Guild structure kept on a fairly unbroken track with an eye toward function. The Americans followed a much more chaotic path of abandoning and then rediscovering heavy timber construction. This has led to practices which are largely purely innovative or hearken back to older and "purer" forms of timber framing.

I may be crazy, but your picture got me thinking. Nice framing by the way, it would be interesting to see more pictures from over there if you have them.

Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Jon Senior] #34272 10/25/17 08:23 PM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 133
J
Jon Senior Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 133
OK all. Bringing this zombie post back to life:

Before:


After:


Replacement of 2/3rds of the south facing wall of a traditional half-timbered, thatched cottage (Chaumičre) here in Normandy with a contemporary take on colombage finished with direct glazing of 11 of the 12 openings created. The masonry and render work is by the client.

I show this because it demonstrates an idea that came to me recently. This style of framing tends to be where the demand lies here in this region and as you can see, the mortise count is fairly high. For a 5m length of single-storey wall, there are 20 draw-bored mortise and tenon joints and certain styles will push this count up higher. This is a fairly high density of mortises.

Also, this project got me thinking lots about the investment in a chain mortiser. Being relatively generous with the estimated time saving, I worked out that I needed at least 18 comparable builds if I kept my pricing the same in order to break even on the purchase, which at my current work load worked out at about 2 years (although this doesn't include the cost of sharpening or replacing the chain). In the end I bought a high quality 30mm bit and will soon be receiving a corner chisel and we'll see where that get's me efficiency-wise.

Last edited by Jon Senior; 10/25/17 08:23 PM.
Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Jon Senior] #34273 10/30/17 08:20 AM
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 306
C
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member
Offline
Member
C
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 306
This old way could be efficient and accurate once a user got proficient. Probably there are limitations - 10 cm seems to be about maximum depth for these mortices but anything under that goes quite fast.
https://vimeo.com/86767783

Re: Rentabilité (or it being worth your time) [Re: Jon Senior] #34274 10/31/17 09:32 AM
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 133
J
Jon Senior Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
J
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 133
It's not too clear from the video, do you pre-drill the mortises or do you do the whole thing with the twybil?

Page 4 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Moderated by  Jim Rogers, mdfinc 

Newest Members
Bradyhas1, cpgoody, James_Fargeaux, HFT, Wrongthinker
5137 Registered Users
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.3
(Release build 20190728)
PHP: 5.4.45 Page Time: 0.037s Queries: 16 (0.014s) Memory: 3.2284 MB (Peak: 3.3977 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-04-23 20:55:41 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS