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#33619 - 03/27/16 02:55 PM Roundwood work
Jon Senior Offline
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Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 112
As a potential change of pace I'm planning on a simple roundwood structure this summer. I have three small oaks that need to come down for safety reasons, and a lack of well-placed trees in which to build a treehouse for my kids, so the idea is to use the roundwood from the oaks to build the first level of a multi-level playhouse that climbs up the bank to the south of our property. I could go mortise and tenon if necessary, but I'd like to explore the options for a more traditional approach. Other than Ben Law, is there anyone out there detailing the necessary methods for attaching roundwood timbers to one another? Especially regarding scribing the form of one timber onto the other.

If not, I'll just finish up with some slightly awkward looking reductions around my joints.
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#33620 - 03/27/16 07:05 PM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Jon Senior]
Jay White Cloud Offline
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Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Hi Jon,


Originally Posted By: Jon Senior
I'd like to explore the options for a more traditional approach.


Think I got lost from the beginning Jon...so I have more questions than being helpful (yet...)

Other than lashing members together with the countless bends, hitches, splices, etc, which is perhaps the oldest "joinery method," I can't think of a family of connecting modalities more traditional and ancient than mortise and tenon. Next would be "notching forms" (i.e gains, laps, scarf/splice, etc)

I know I am missing something here...apologies.

Originally Posted By: Jon Senior
...is there anyone out there detailing the necessary methods for attaching roundwood timbers to one another?

Especially regarding scribing the form of one timber onto the other.


Log work has extensive methods in this area, a lot of which is around lapping and scarfing joints, and of course mortise and tenon. Examininging these will go for into "scribing methods." Then there is all the templating and lofting methods to work in concert with these.

A number of Artisan are working in "bamboo"...and...some of this is still employing "lashing methods" over metal hardware. Haukafa/Lalava of Pacific area indigenous peoples, et al, are just some of the countless forms and styles of lashing as a joinery method. Square, tripod, shear, round, and diagonal modalities are just some.

Originally Posted By: Jon Senior
If not, I'll just finish up with some slightly awkward looking reductions around my joints.


"Reductions"...???...do you mean joint housings or something else?

Regards,

j
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#33621 - 03/27/16 07:10 PM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Jon Senior]
D L Bahler Offline

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Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 946
Loc: Indiana
I can't confirm, but I have the suspicion that 'neck' joints (I don't know what the proper term is in English, unfortunately) or bridle joints (maybe that's correct? In German it's called Sattel or Hals, saddle or neck, depending on whose writing) have their origins in round log framing, and they make a great deal of sense in this context.

Your post has a fork on its end, that fits over a nut cut into the cross timber. This joint is common in Norway, in framing systems that presumably evolved from Stavverk or stave contruction. I don't really know what types of joints are used in the Stave churches however...

Then I also know of some round work from switzerland, mostly from Italian areas or poorer mountain regions. Connections in horizontal member are very often accomplished with the exact same passed notch joint used in log construction.

Hopefully this is useful, it's just a few things i have observed in traditional practices.
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#33622 - 03/27/16 07:17 PM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Jon Senior]
D L Bahler Offline

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Just did a little followup,

necked joints are indeed used in the Stave Churches
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#33623 - 03/27/16 07:27 PM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Jon Senior]
D L Bahler Offline

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Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 946
Loc: Indiana
Here are some images of 'Sattelholz'

These are in squared timber, and fairly ornate and also include pillow blocks, but the joint form has its origins in roundwood

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#33624 - 03/28/16 12:25 AM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Jay White Cloud]
Jon Senior Offline
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Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 112
Originally Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Originally Posted By: Jon Senior
I'd like to explore the options for a more traditional approach.


Think I got lost from the beginning Jon...so I have more questions than being helpful (yet...)

Other than lashing members together with the countless bends, hitches, splices, etc, which is perhaps the oldest "joinery method," I can't think of a family of connecting modalities more traditional and ancient than mortise and tenon. Next would be "notching forms" (i.e gains, laps, scarf/splice, etc)

I know I am missing something here...apologies.



Sorry. My brain was clearly not functioning when I wrote the post. I'd seen a lot of stuff from Ben Law about the "butterpat joint", and hadn't clocked that a large amount of his joinery is still mortise and tenon with scribing to enable the timbers to mate well. What I was imagining was a sill plate (at least, we can use that as an example). In my head, the sill would be joined to the side of the posts, rather than going over the top of them which requires something other than a mortise and tenon since neither timber is terminating at the joint.

After posting my question it occurred to me that my current design could accommodate a sill plate on top of the posts which allows for a mortise in the sill and a tenon on the post with the post being scribed to match the sill plate. I just need to work out how to prevent water from pooling in the joint given that this joint will be outside and largely unprotected from the elements.

Originally Posted By: Jay White Cloud

Originally Posted By: Jon Senior
...is there anyone out there detailing the necessary methods for attaching roundwood timbers to one another?

Especially regarding scribing the form of one timber onto the other.


Log work has extensive methods in this area, a lot of which is around lapping and scarfing joints, and of course mortise and tenon. Examininging these will go for into "scribing methods." Then there is all the templating and lofting methods to work in concert with these.


Thanks. I'd not realised that "real" log cabins (as apposed to squared timber chalets) involved significant amounts of scribing. Thankyou YouTube for clarifying how to use a log scribe! smile
Originally Posted By: Jay White Cloud

A number of Artisan are working in "bamboo"...and...some of this is still employing "lashing methods" over metal hardware. Haukafa/Lalava of Pacific area indigenous peoples, et al, are just some of the countless forms and styles of lashing as a joinery method. Square, tripod, shear, round, and diagonal modalities are just some.

Originally Posted By: Jon Senior
If not, I'll just finish up with some slightly awkward looking reductions around my joints.


"Reductions"...???...do you mean joint housings or something else?

Yes. Between the vocabulary that I have in French, in American English and British English it's frankly a wonder I ever manange to find the right word.

D L Bahler: Thanks for the insights. I don't have the thickness in the timbers to make those bridle joints (and my posts sadly lack the convenient fork) but interesting to know that the horizontal to horizontal connection used in log building could also work. That was essentially what I was originally looking for.
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#33625 - 03/28/16 08:39 AM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Jon Senior]
Will B Offline

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Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 178
Loc: Massachusetts
Hi Jon,
If you have the Guild's Timber Framing Fundamentals book there are three scribing articles in there, the last of which details round to round mortise and tenon connections specifically. There are three main methods described: a coped joint (laid out using bubble scribers), a housed joint (where the tenoned piece has a square shoulder and goes into a housing in the mortise piece that completely surrounds it; this is similar to templated Asian methods I've seen) and mitered joint. The latter is what many log builders use in trusses, can be laid out with a laser level or plumb bob and eye, and is also described in the Log Construction Manual by Rob Chambers and I think available from the Int'l Log Builders Assn.
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#33626 - 03/28/16 02:16 PM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Jon Senior]
Jon Senior Offline
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Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 112
I don't, and unless there's an option for digital download, I'll sadly have to pass it by. $40 for the book is not out of the question (I like books), but another $60 to get it posted to France is! Thanks for the info though. I'll keep an eye out for the book in the UK s/h market in case a copy surfaces! smile
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Contemporary Norman longhouse in Normandy

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#33627 - 03/28/16 02:49 PM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Jon Senior]
Will B Offline

Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 178
Loc: Massachusetts
Might be some YouTube videos on mitered log trusses. I prefer the housed joint since it hides much of the shrinkage effects. You basically cut a shoulder square to the tenon on one round piece and then cut out a slot for the tenon in a piece of plywood. Then put the plywood over the tenon down to the shoulder and trace the circumference of the tenoned log on the ply and cut it out. Take this template over to the piece to be mortised that has been leveled, and screw it over the roughed out mortise location, shimming and wedging it to keep it level. Plumb down from the sides of the template with a torpedo to create the profile of the tenoned log on the mortised piece. Then drill out the housing plumb with a 1-2" self-feed bit until the entire housing table is level and below the surface of the log. Use the datum of this table to figure out where to cut the tenoned piece to length. Drill the mortise deeper as required to take the tenon. It's like double scribing, where you insert a waney tenoned piece into a mortise partway and then scribe the waney shoulder to finish it.
It's pretty hard to describe but maybe you can find some other videos online, as I learned this from some Japanese carpenters. This is one of the techniques we teach at Heartwood, and I should do a video myself, one of these days....


Edited by Will B (03/28/16 02:50 PM)
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#33628 - 03/28/16 03:20 PM Re: Roundwood work [Re: Will B]
Jay White Cloud Offline
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Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Hello All,

I understand better now the goals...

I must concur with Will on every point he has thus far made and or solutions offered...excellent...

Housing joints, for the extra effort it does take, is far outweighed by all the benefits of this addition to most joint intersections. From strengthening to aesthetics...little beats a housing...even in "live edge work."

The "line layout" and templating methods are well described in both video, blogs, and forum postings...unfortunately most (almost all the good one I know off??) are in either Chinese, Korean or Japanese...

I am currently having translated a Chinese video series from a Harvard student on some of the Chinese methods of timber framing. It is not as detailed as many of the Japanese videos with explanation, but has enough detail for a seasoned Timberwright to glean a great deal of knowledge...I will post a link at the bottom for the untranslated originals that are now on "Youtube."

These methods, once understood are simply brilliant in their solutions to different timber framing layout challenges and in other cultures are solved by "lofting." It mainly boils down to a "magic line" inside a building member...ergo...line layout...The snapped ink lines all represent the "soul line" inside the tiber, and this is what all the joinery corresponds to. Even in round/live edge work there is no "lofting" only the line, template and, of course, understanding the interplay of geometry...

And YES Will!!!...you should do more videos!! They would be fantastic...but I should make an effort more in this area myself...so have no room to talk...or point fingers...Ha ha...

Traditional Carpentry in Southern China video 1

Traditional Carpentry in Southern China video 2

Traditional Carpentry in Southern China video 3

Traditional Carpentry in Southern China video 4

Traditional Carpentry in Southern China video 5

Traditional Carpentry in Southern China video 6

Traditional Carpentry in Southern China video 7


Edited by Jay White Cloud (03/28/16 03:22 PM)
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