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#33772 - 07/08/16 03:24 AM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
D Wagstaff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 243
That's interesting. I have a long span to level and a goat to do in, (after the Fall rut of course.)

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#33773 - 07/08/16 04:33 AM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 469
Loc: Vermont
Hi Tim, et al.,

Sounds like a good deal Tim...Maybe over the weekend I'll start a thread if you don't beat me to it...which forum subject here do you think is the best place for it?? It does deserve its own thread and not clogging N. Butlers conversation...I am reviewing his CAD model of the project in question now, and I am sure he will have more to report, and/or ask questions about later on in this thread..

Hey Roger...The use of survey tools is an art in and off itself...I remember being the "stick man" in the Marines. If you have the talent for an old optical system...I say go for it...It still would act as only a "rough in" tool (like today's lasers.) Perhaps the new post should include the batter systems and other aspects of foundation work ans we have all done for timber frames...There are many tricks out there to share and getting them down in a discussion would be nice for folks trying to learn...

I also (for some applications) like long span levels as well. We have a 24' (5' section -expansion bolted) aluminum level that is really nice for some applications and large wood 3,4,5, (6mx8mx10m) that is also a must for aspects of this work.

I think some of us here also do like to "eat goat," as it is one of my favorite meat dishes...I think perhaps the "goat method" and others would be something to do a Journal Article about...
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#33774 - 07/08/16 06:07 PM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
D Wagstaff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 243
It's a two year old ram with its testicles intact. I'm not eating that but if the intestine will be of service it would be nice using it. Looking forward to your details Jay.

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#33775 - 07/08/16 07:18 PM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 469
Loc: Vermont
I loved Goat!!!...So weather 2 or 10...male or female...If one is accustomed to many of the Middle Eastern dishes...it's all good...Wish I was closer...I would love to help you out with him D.W....He would be great curried or pit barbecued...I will try to outline a "step by step" in the posting...would love feedback from any that try it out...

Regards,

j
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#33776 - 07/08/16 07:29 PM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
Will B Offline

Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 177
Loc: Massachusetts
OK; I'll "bite" on this one.
Goat is the most widely eaten meat in the world. We get one every year for the freezer.
On a side note, Jack Sobon claims the animal intestines were also used for chalk lines...
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Will
www.heartwoodschool.com

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#33777 - 07/08/16 07:32 PM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1871
Loc: Maine
Will, that was frog gut chalk lines.

Jay, post it up in the "tool" section.

Goat is one of my favorite critters.

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#33780 - 07/08/16 07:58 PM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 469
Loc: Vermont
"Tool Section" it is then...Outstanding!!

I too love Goats...I use to have a beautiful herd of Nubian, and some really big black "Boer" that had some "Bengal" in him (freaking monster Ram at over 529k (~240lb)...Thank goodness he was a "good boy" and even playing he could (did!!) hurt me...
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#33809 - 07/14/16 09:36 PM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
N_Butler Offline
Member

Registered: 06/30/16
Posts: 6
Loc: Maine
I'm sure that given time and connections I could source timbers of the appropriate length. Perhaps I could even find them on my lot and hew them, but time is precious and my connections are few. I'll give it some thought though, I do have some nice pine and red oak fit for harvest, but that's still quite a task to put in place!

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#33811 - 07/14/16 11:19 PM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Western NY
N Butler,
What length of timber are you needing for your plates? I don't think there is anything wrong with a good scarf joint when needed.

Jay,
You are probably on to something with the layout and execution having a lot to do with the buildings coming together straight without additional help. The arrangement of plate above posts with rafters joined to those plates still seems preferable to me than interrupting the cross members at the plate. I could not put my finger on a quantifiable reason at first but I after some thought I think I have one to field.

Lets consider this joint intersection under racking pressure. We will also assume that there is knee brace from the post to the rafter carrying horizontal member and there is a rafter placed directly over the post.
With the horizontal member broken up by the posts the only thing resisting the racking pressure (including any levering action imposed by the brace) is the joint itself, which by definition is a potential pivot point. I'm however not implying that the joint can't be designed to properly resist this force.
With the plate passing over the post it gains two critical advantages. Gravity, (always a force to worked WITH when possible) is on the joint's side, augmented by whatever load is transmitted through the rafter. Also, the string of post to plate joints is going to working more in unison to resist the destructive pressure. If interrupted by the posts, it would seem that they are working concurrently but not really "together" if you catch my meaning.
Any scarf joints necessary to the arrangement would have to treated as a separate variable entirely, as they are all over the place structurally in how well they mimic an un-scarfed beam. But I think that we can agree that it is possible to produce scarf joints that perform highly enough to not detract form my argument.
This is just my own thought experiment based on my own notion of structural "rightness". It just seems more "right" in my mind that the plate should pass over the posts, and I don't even think for purely "historical" reasons. I imagine that an engineer could point out some fallacies in my thinking, which I would love to hear! Has any comparative study been done that anyone knows of? Could be an interesting joint busting demo at the net conference!....

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#33814 - 07/15/16 08:17 AM Re: Mid Span Beam Joinery Question(s) [Re: N_Butler]
Will B Offline

Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 177
Loc: Massachusetts
Running the plate over the post is preferable; bringing the ends of two plates into the top end of the post creates 3 joints at the ends of timbers - something to avoid if possible since it can induce splitting.
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Will
www.heartwoodschool.com

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