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#33851 - 07/19/16 10:40 AM Re: Wedges [Re: TIMBEAL]
Dave Shepard Offline
Member

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 707
Loc: Alford, MA
Jay, you really aren't grasping what I'm trying to say, and your excessively long replies do nothing to hide that. Without that small but of taper,rounding, etc., you would never get the peg started without damage. Once you reach the full diameter of the peg, then there is no more draw boring going on.

I find your approach at discussing things very arrogant, as if you are the only intelligent and experienced person in the conversation. You've been booted from at least one forum already for this. I know that you have alienated people from the discussions here because they don't want to endure your verbose replies. Anytime there is a request for information here that someone responds to before you, you seem to feel the need to add a multi paragraphed response as well, which usually runs way off point with your need to discuss the many irrelevant modalities with which you have some experience with. Please don't think I am alone in my opinion, I'm just the first one to get bothered enough to say something.
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#33852 - 07/19/16 11:21 AM Re: Wedges [Re: Dave Shepard]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Dave, some folks say "arrogant" (they typically like to argue and debate" a topic of discussion)...

Other say "informative, helpful and of great value"...(they typically like to learn, discuss and explore a topics many side fully)...

We can only choose which we care to be at any given time...

I can't (nor intend) to appease or placate all that read my posts. I always go back through (often several times) and re-read what someone is "trying" to convey on a topic, as a teacher, that is imperative.

I quoted you on every point I addressed as clearly as I possibly could and illustrated as effectively as possible where able. I do not attempt this to dissuade you by any means. Act and believe as you wish. I write instead when I feel there perhaps is another view, and/or historical/empirical indicator to the contrary, and for the many others that read these forums, post and follow my writing on the subject (I have corresponded positively with several offline on this topic...as apparently not everyone finds my post "arrogant.)

Again, I do sincerely apologize if I have inadvertently offended you in some fashion...that is not my intent. I will and do have the same "conditional rights" as everyone else on this forum to post however way I wish as long as I am courteous and respectful. Which does not mean we have to agree with one another. If you don't agree with me, I am o.k. with that...No hard feelings there at all...
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#33853 - 07/19/16 11:51 AM Re: Wedges [Re: TIMBEAL]
D L Bahler Offline

Member

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 946
Loc: Indiana
Jay, please consider the nature of your response.

We can consider that the opposite of arrogance is humility. A humble response would be to say that perhaps there is room for improvement, and to look for the truth in what Dave is saying, even if the majority of his argument were invalid. You call yourself a teacher, a true teacher must realize that he never stops being a student, and must never consider himself to be above his pupils or in any way superior.

In the eyes of many, your response will only strengthen Dave's point.

In Dave's defense, his point is correct. When we apply a taper on the end of a peg, even if it is slight, we are assuming that peg will exert a wedging force for the length of that taper (even if it were only a bevel) In the case of non drawing pegs, that wedging force only serves to ease in initial insertion of the peg. It may not be absolutely necessary, but it still does perform that action.

In the case of a draw-born hole, you have a much longer taper on the end of the peg (around here, pegs tended to be sharpened nearly to a point with a taper 3 to 4 inches long). Draw born holes are not lined up, essentially meaning you have a smaller hole in which to insert the end of your peg. As you drive it in, the inclined surface of the peg forces the tow unaligned holes into alignment with each other. The longer the taper, the easier this action is. This is by definition a wedging force.

There is an analogue in Central Europe that can be used to illustrate this point further. On the sills of large timber frames, double or triple through tenons are used, secured in place with wooden wedges. Both German and English refer to these as wedges, although in service a flat portion is in the joint. The wedging action occurs only during assembly. They have a taper on the end, after which they flatten out. They wedged ends serve to draw the sill beams together, and the flat surface prevents them from working their way out of the joint over time. I've never heard these referred to as anything other than wedges, and the joint is called a wedged joint. It is exactly the same action being performed by a draw peg. The wedging force acts during assembly, after which it is no longer necessary. It is no matter whether the wedging is performed by the in service peg (which around here would often be trimmed off, removing the pointed end) or by a steel peg or other assembly tool which is then removed and replaced. The force at work is still a wedging force.


Edited by D L Bahler (07/19/16 11:53 AM)
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#33854 - 07/19/16 02:54 PM Re: Wedges [Re: TIMBEAL]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 269
Loc: the Netherlands
I can't say that rational for using pegs tapered in the whole length is convincing. And wedging like that is something I never trusted with the natural movement of wood let alone shifting and shaking in a timber frame. I even avoided till now those tapered plug cutters put out as so innovative by Veritas and stick with straight sided plugs.
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#33855 - 07/19/16 03:51 PM Re: Wedges [Re: TIMBEAL]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
Cecile, have you ever under cut something so the leading edge will be tight, making for a clean looking job, especially when attention to details is not totally needed? Pegs are this way, more than not. There are different people out there and we all interact in differing ways. I don't know what you fellows that don't understand the tapered peg are seeing but it clearly is not what I am seeing. There is now way I will ever change my pegging style, it is a beautiful thing. I have to ask if those that use full length size pegs are truly draw boring? Those draws vary in amounts of draw. How do you manage a tight draw? Do you thin out the full size peg or just crush it into the hole?

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#33856 - 07/19/16 04:30 PM Re: Wedges [Re: TIMBEAL]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
For the general part of it all Tim...and in the frames I have followed your work on...I think (I could be wrong without understanding more details) that your method is fine and does probably serve you well. I believe it was also you that brought up "redundancy" here or someplace else and I agree with that also so the peg size isn't the "most critical" element collectively on a frame though still very important.

I am curious, it the accumulative cross section of a member assembly is say 200 mm (8")...what percentage of that is full peg and what still has tapper after being driven home?

To your questions (speaking from my own experience and understanding of its methods):

Quote:
...those that use full length size pegs are truly draw boring?


By all major principals of the method as I know it...They are "drawn" as I understand the method. I am a "green woodworker" fan of the Jennie Alexander, Roy Underhill, Peter Follansbee ilk, so be it riven green oak, hickory, ash, pine etc for a Trestle table, cabinet or "knockdown" Armoire to a timber frame...I like my wood "green" and draw boring does well with these systems. The holes are offset accordingly and the joint "undercut" often as you rightfully suggest to achieve the tight fit these combined methods yield when working well in concert with one another...

Quote:
...Those draws vary in amounts of draw. How do you manage a tight draw?


I could be missing it on this one...?? but from the layout systems I use and the approaches I take to this there isn't much variation, unless I am understanding this question incorrectly? We manage a very tight draw because of the draw pin or podgers.

Quote:
Do you thin out the full size peg or just crush it into the hole?


It usually crushes the ingress point and fully fills the egress area with some crushing there as well in some species. I do also like octagonal or hexagonal riven pegs the best, and much more than turned pegs...if too dried out both will get oil soaked, and these days I am really liking the canola oil as it isn't a "drying oil," and the pegs stay strong yet suppel...
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#33857 - 07/19/16 05:07 PM Re: Wedges [Re: TIMBEAL]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
If the timber is 8" wide, the joinery is typically 2" off the reference face with 1.5 or 2" mortice. So one side only has 2" of decent full peg on one side the other side, the off side, will see at least another equal 2" of good meat. Plenty in my book. The extra 4" on the far side will yield some peg length allow the flex in the peg that is desirable and of which you speak of, Jay. So all that and no damage to the relish on the tenon.

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#33858 - 07/19/16 05:08 PM Re: Wedges [Re: D L Bahler]
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Western NY
I do not think that anyone will argue that there is no wedging force happening in a draw-bored joint. However, I think that the distinction being made is that a pegged joint is not a true wedged joint. Typically in my mind, a wedged joint has a continuous plane which can be adjusted through a range.

I agree with Timbeal that what he uses might be considered more of a wedged joint , it's sort of a hybrid.
I don't really think that it is representative of pegging practice overall.

I don't want to make a big point of this, but I really enjoy Jay's posts whether I agree or not. I can see that he pushes people's buttons sometimes, but I don't think it is intentional. I think that he has strongly held opinions which he is not afraid to state vociferously, just like the rest of us! I actually miss his input quite a bit on the Forestry Forum, it livened things up and created some good heated debate! Lets enjoy the debate and not take it personally. En Garde!

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#33859 - 07/19/16 06:28 PM Re: Wedges [Re: TIMBEAL]
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Western NY
Personally, I use a riven octagonal peg tapered only on the last 1" or 1 1/2". I do soak them in a bucket of linseed oil and find that it makes driving them much easier. Personally, I don't see an issue with a small amount of crushing on the relish side of a draw-bored hole. I think it's unavoidable with an offset hole.

I think that the point with the peg not filling the entire hole is that it makes it a bit of an engineering unknown. Which is really not a major problem for many projects, but can be problematic if dealing with trusses or heavily loaded beams in tension.

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#33860 - 07/19/16 08:33 PM Re: Wedges [Re: TIMBEAL]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
Just a reminder why I started this thread. I am boring round holes on through tenons, they are not chiseled square. I am then inserting half round tapered wedges into these wedge holes, this happens on the opposite side of the tie beam. All in replacement of a rectangular tapered wedge. My contention is it is no different than a draw bored peg.

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