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#33931 - 08/22/16 01:44 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
Jay White Cloud Offline
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Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 484
Loc: Vermont
Hello Roger,

Though perhaps "off point" I can appreciate (though not a Christian myself) the fineries of any scripture within Isaiah and any of the other Abrahamic faiths..Yet must admitt some unfamiliarity with the symbalance (or significance if any??) these passages may have as they may apply to the actual application or understanding of Line Layout in any of the traditional points of relevance to applying Line Layout within timber framing as it would be translated from the original languages I have translated it from?

As a Bodyguard to the Chaplains in active service during my times in the Marines it has been a long time since I have read these passages...Thanks for sharing them.

Perhaps (for clarity) I should have expanded my comment in context to read more clearly for those not more familiar with this system of layout in the traditional sense?

Line Rule has no bearing on either a reference edge or plane on a timber's surface other than point of context within the design, yet rather relies more precisely (or significantly?) on planes and/or rays within the timber itself represented by viewable points typically at each ends of a given timber...

Perhaps that describes is a bit clearer or concise??? I am always open to suggestions to refine the definitive understanding further and/or more clearly. Through Sean's questions and discussion on the topic over the years I do believe I have honed the description pretty well, and discussion like this only aids refinement further...Thank you.
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#33932 - 08/22/16 04:01 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
D Wagstaff Offline
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Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 252
Once an old jewish character, Haantje, he was called, who lived in a shoe box before picking up and heading out to Bulgaria where he lived in a mud hut, told me something credited to this Isaiah figure: Something like this, "Before building your house, make your best guess at the costs, then double that and double that again and you will be close."
Nice stuff Rodger and, to the extent of its authenticity, can be considered evidence sufficient, if you ask me.


Edited by D Wagstaff (08/22/16 04:02 AM)

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#33933 - 08/22/16 09:06 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: D Wagstaff]
Roger Nair Offline
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Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 450
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
Thanks Don.

Jay, I think you are missing the obvious, try thinking laterally instead of literally. The King James translation is well before the era of square rule carpentry and construction but you will find within the passage evidence of reference plane thinking and from the tried foundation stone evidence of forming material to reference planes. Building and carpentry method has for ages had the concept of tried and trued, it's embedded in tool names ie try square and try plane. I find that your insistence that surface planes are not relevant to be uncraftsmanlike. What you seem to discount is the conversion and stock preparation as part of layout, when craftsmen reshape the stock it is toward a purpose. You are talking about systems however it strikes me that you are trying to make cheese but bypassing the dairy animals.

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#33934 - 08/22/16 10:02 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
Jay White Cloud Offline
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Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 484
Loc: Vermont
Hello Roger,

I agree that we can find much in the way of Squares and related layout tools being employed both in Europe, the Middle East, and Asian well before King Jame's time period. Yet I do not find clear evidence of any aspect (other than some in stone) begins to reflect the true Square Rule modalities as we find them starting in the 1760's (give of take) other than perhaps in some ship building which I am looking more into...I do agree further that during the 1600 we do find some limited evidence of work being conducted in both stone and timber that is moving toward the use of squares in the layout systems even more, yet the evidence both in literature and architecture is still dominated mostly by Scribe Rule systems of building and there is only some very rare and obscure evidence of Lining Methods of layout being found in timber framing though some in stone sculpture and within that context and ship building as well.

As to Line Rule systems using King James translation (1604 to 1611,) especially one not really related directly to timber framing, as a foundationally significant source for details in a layout method orgined predominantly in Asia over the last ~4000 years, is literary citation I would think applicable to this topic...but that is just my view. Since the Xia Dynasty ((c. 2070-1600 BCE) then the Shang Dynasty (1600-1050 BCE) I think I will have to keep on the path I currently am following for the topic of Line Rule, yet still do look for evidence of it everywhere.

To your observation of craft and my take on it, I would suggest that since I started in the Scribe Rule (then Square Rule) Dutch-Germanic style I understand very well these systems and how they "reshape the stock" not only in timber framing but most of the folk class of furniture design and manufacture as well. I have not discounted any of this, just moved on into the older Asian systems of applying design and layout from that culture's craft aesthetic and perspective. Not better...per se...just different and older.



Edited by Jay White Cloud (08/22/16 10:07 AM)
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#33935 - 08/22/16 11:55 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: Roger Nair]
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
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Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Western NY
I'm sorry Roger, but I totally fail to see any real pertinence in your point with the quote. I really feel like you are putting words in Jay's mouth by saying that he is discounting stock preparation and surface planes. He was talking about a specific system that happens to not rely on those for a reference. You could just as easily find fault with Will for saying that Mill rule is not a layout system. Doesn't that discount stock preparation?
And I fail to see why you find it necessary to personally attack Jay for being "uncraftsmanlike". That's something that I don't think that any of us should be saying in a public venue lightly. This is someone's reputation and very nature that you are passing judgement on.

I think that we can have an interesting discussion on the history and nature of layout methods without this turning sour!

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#33936 - 08/22/16 07:39 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
Roger Nair Offline
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Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 450
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
Well I've been carrying around the Isaiah passage for over fifty years and I find it revealing, so it goes. As to me putting words in Jay's mouth over discounting stock preparation, a comparison of how square rule handles odd sizing and how a Japanese crew might handle the same problem. Central to my understanding of the Japanese approach is how the helpers and apprentices will spend a major amount of time hand planing the small rectangular stock into standard dimensions. The idea is to create a visual field upon which the featured stock, the round, bowed and wavy, stand out from the field of uniformity. Jay does not account for that behavior and praises Eastern line rule superiority. Can anyone think Eastern mill rule in a traditional context? that is a tease.

Reread the uncraftsmanlike comment, that stems from the above critique not a attack on the person. Nevertheless I am sorry for hurt feelings and will endeavor to be more mindful of others feelings.

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#33937 - 08/22/16 09:33 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: Roger Nair]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 484
Loc: Vermont
I guess I should "account better" perhaps than I have, so will endeavor to explain certain aspects in more detail than I failed to do above...

I only use the Japanese forms of Line Layout as not to clog a conversation with all the many related styles of layout found throughout Asian timber framing cultures that I have studied and travel to see. So I don't mean for us to get trapped into any one specific cultural application of Line Layout system...Though all of them are very similar in application.

Stock preparation is not planned to standard dimension for most frames...especially historically or in the vernacular folk forms of which I specialise (e.g. Minka, Soan style Chashitsu, Hanok, Wondumak, Chise, etc) Most (if not all??) wood typically whether in Japan, Korea, China or elsewhere is often surfaced treated, be it with a plane, axe, adz or even shark skin and fire...or some other fashion...is done for function and aesthetic...if left to an exposed area that is viewable. It is typically an aesthetic or practical treatment and has little (if anything in most cases) to do with truing (aka squaring) a member into a dimensional uniform shape. The exceptions are rare until we get into perhaps more refined furniture and related work, yet even here much is done by touch and eye, in finishing and not application of square and measure of degree. As stated before, and having taught this subject for some time now, the snapped lines are the relevant element to layout and not the plane of the timber itself they are snapped or drawn upon. These line only represent Focal Points for areas deeper inside the timber. Again, this is why for example, the Koreans can and do employ so much tapered and round stock in their frames never bothering to do more than unify the surface with planes and related tools for aesthetic and durability reasons.

The lines and what they represent are the focal point to layout, in the design and application of joinery. "Visual Fields" are not but an after effect that forms the contrasting geometry of timbers coming together in a very aesthetically pleasing presentation. Studying "Wabi Sabi" and the element embraced by practicing "Kintsugi," explains the focus in much of not only Japanese aesthetic and approach to design (even their layout systems) and to that found in much of Asian culture. Truing a timber is seldom (if ever) a focus much beyond appropriate length and approximate dimension...and of course a given aesthetic. Which is almost exclusively ture in all the Asian vernacular folk classes of timber frame architecture. The way a timber, stone or related element comes in its natural form most often is the focus...with its imperfections and to use as such is more often the goal than having it conform to a set geometry or reference plane. With Line Layout systems, when well understood and embraced, the elements of "Wabi Sabi" are fully reflected.

As to my application of craft and artistic style, I let my work (and that of students I help) speak for itself, and take no umbrage. I personally do try very hard not to engage in critique anyone's work past safety or when they request such assessment or analysis be it historic, structural or from an aesthetic perspective.




Edited by Jay White Cloud (08/22/16 09:39 PM)
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#33940 - 08/24/16 08:54 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
Chris Hall Offline

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Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 168
Loc: Greenfield, Massachusetts
Quote:
"Sumidzuke (sumitsuke) is (in general) term for “layout” but literally means “Blackening the face,” in Japanese"


I would quibble with that on a couple of counts. As far as I know, the standard reading for those characters is 'sumi-tsuke'. I've just searched online, and in my two kanji dictionaries, in vain to see if there is a variant reading of "sumidzuke", to no avail. I'd be interested to see a link to a dictionary where that kanji pairing is written in kana as "sumidzuke".

As for a literal reading of the characters, while there is a Sumitsuke Festival at New Year's in certain parts of Japan, in which people blacken their faces with ink, the literal meaning of the two characters is 'ink-apply', i'e., "put ink on (things)", not "blacken the face". Neither character in sumi-tsuke means 'face' or 'black(en)'. Sumi is ink, and ~tsuke is apply, put on.

The common (i.e., not literal) meaning of sumitsuke to people in Japan, according to standard dictionaries, is in reference to the New Year's Festival and people blackening their faces. The meaning of 'putting ink on timbers' is a secondary meaning and one of those technical carpentry words known to fewer regular Japanese folks.





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#33941 - 08/25/16 12:33 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: Chris Hall]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 484
Loc: Vermont
Hello Chris...It's been awhile since we chatted...Thank you for adding your voice to the conversation.

Originally Posted By: Chris Hall
As far as I know, the standard reading for those characters is 'sumi-tsuke'.


I don't believe I would disagree with you Chris...and perhaps as a Romanized translation of the word, that perhaps could be the first example...however...it isn't the only one that is correct...as it has been explained to me.

I can share...from native language speakers (and my notes as well as computer based translators including Googles that only seems to get better each year) that... "Sumidzuke" comes up just as often.

On checking, it was explained to me that both are acceptable spellings. One of my primary sources over the decades is the former (now passed) languages Professors (and dear friend) at Dartmouth College...John Rassias and the Rassias Center for World Languages and Culture. This is offered to cite just one of my other translation sources I use beyond my own knowledge, notes, and contact with Native Language speakers.

In general...as to translation in the Romanized words of Japanese, I would bow to your spoken Japanese on most (if not all accounts) yet must share that having corresponded and traveled there in good account (as well as being raised part of my life in a native speaking Korean/Japanese household) I have learned there is much to the Romanization of Japanese terms (i.e. romaji) and regrettably our forum does not support kanji or I would use it with the words as well. With both standard and non-standard Romanization I have seen a very broad range of spelling both in country and in modern translators.

Further, I know you have taken umbrage with certain academic groups that translate architectural terms like Jaanus. I too, find some of there translations of architectural and related terms out of context, yet after speaking with Native speakers and linguists on the topic I can also state that there is not always definitive correct and incorrect terms on many of these. None of this even begins to speak to dialects, Prefecture and subtle Kanji differences within the Japanese language from Hokkaido to the Ryukyu archipelago...which reflects a broad and rich variance with the language...much like English. Just as a Mainer sounds and speaks much different than a Texan, often even spelling things differently, so to do we find this in Japan, Korean, China and in most languages.

Originally Posted By: Chris Hall
Neither character in sumi-tsuke means 'face' or 'black(en)'. Sumi is ink, and ~tsuke is apply, put on.


In the literal translation of the Kanji Chris...I would agree with you 100%. However, that does not mean that within certain regional normative cultures, this is not the Kanji used to describe the festival events or what takes place...and...I have seen it posted as such...

As to the translation of "Blacking the face" I would reflect similar findings and citations as above...and offer the following links as well being the fastest I could find that supports my understanding...For those interested...please not the Kanji reflected in the search bar for both pages are the same...It all depends on use and context...as well as...regional Prefectural differences in the Japanese culture and cast system.

Lining and layout of timber...or Sumidsuke

Blackening the Face Festival photos...(note different in different Prefecture)

As always Chris...good to hear from you...If you send me an email Chris we can explore this further if you would wish, as to not get to far off the subject into the subtleties of language translation into English or obscure meaning of Kanji from standard "street" Japanese and into traditional architectural forms...



Edited by Jay White Cloud (08/25/16 12:35 AM)
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#33942 - 08/25/16 01:46 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: Jay White Cloud]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 484
Loc: Vermont
I would add...shortly after the above posting the below was located as additional information for this short segue into the Japanese Language...There is both traditional Kanji and the Hiragana forms...Below is a Hiragana translation from a festival site in Japan...

Sumidzuke

Note again the primary phonetic translation is Sumi (ink) dzuke (attach or attaching). As Chris pointed out no reference to face...yet...it is used as such and reflect the linguistic differentials that exist in the spoken language culturally from different Prefectures (regions or states) of Japan.

Further...when used in a complete sentence the Romaji for the word does shift (or change) and could explain some of the confusion. With in a sentence it often is translated as...Sumitsuke.

Who is bad? "Short version. Kiurakozan Sumitsuke festival

The above passage coming from a festival goer's blog post about one of these related festivals that can range from honoring the dead, to fishing and other good harvests...Region to region, they go by different names...Schools and young children are often the focal point and many videos exist reflecting these wonderful celebrations...
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