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#34015 - 09/27/16 06:42 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
That is interesting, Jay. My area has very few square ruled buildings, most are scribed in some manor. The community buildings such as churches are square ruled, I presume the builders were from away and the locals built as their fathers did and didn't pick up on the square rule app. As for my direct experience I do not try to make the parts interchangeable.... other than braces and a few girts.

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#34016 - 09/27/16 10:30 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: TIMBEAL]
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Western NY
That's really interesting Timbeal. That clarifies what you meant. Sometimes those more remote geographic corners end up having some really interesting developments, and can give insights into historical practice that are long obscured in more "modern" areas. What methods of scribing commonly persisted up there?

Jay, I own Hodgson's book, and I will pick up a copy of "Art and Science of Carpentry Made Easy" by William E. Bell. It seems like it was the carpenter's standard for quite some decades.
I suppose that there is quite a dearth of documentary evidence predating the mid 1800's on exact methodology. I think that sometimes broad techniques were considered so universally understood and common that it would have been considered unnecessary to write them down. On the flip side, many specific techniques were guarded knowledge and much knowledge passed away with that generation. It's amazing how inaccessible the past of only a couple hundred years can be, when there is a major break in practice as we saw during the 1900's.

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#34017 - 09/27/16 10:51 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: TIMBEAL]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 447
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
In my own practice, I square rule but I do not repeat bents and vary bay width and create facets in roof lines so the only repeated members are braces (ignore handedness), joist and rafters. In old work variety abounds. Barns don't just spring from the ground in a single build, often there is a core building that is added on. Some of the Pennsylvania style barns are constructed with reversed reference ie start with the east gable and raise two bents then go to west gable and raise two bents and then fill in the middle. The give away for spotting is the gains are mirrored east to west and there are overscarfs on both ends of central plates and principal purlins. There can be a fair amount of specific placement in seemingly generic repeated frames.

The other issue I have is other the idea of interchangeability. The joints are repeated again and again to the extent that go no go gauges can be made for joints but the timbers do not replace one another. The same could be said of other framing systems elsewhere. Of course a scribed joint is not standardized.

It was not until Jack Sobon published the square rule, scribe rule booklet that the terms used in the title appeared in the general discussion. So this is a new reordering of knowledge that was truly lost and had to be regained. This will lead to some conflict but applying the term Edge Rule over square rule is a high handed method of discourse. Incidentally, we write and read English not High German, so drop the caps.

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#34018 - 09/27/16 11:30 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: Roger Nair]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 447
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
One last thought, to test the acceptance of terms google square rule, scribe rule, line rule and edge rule.

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#34019 - 09/27/16 02:14 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
Thanks for this input, Roger. I also see predominant center bay lay out, where the braces are aligned to the center bay and end bents are to the outside, four bent structures. I presume these building are lofted off the floor. I never see snapped lines on these building but that doesn't mean they did't use them. Did they use ink? Chalk which would dissolve over a short period of time, let alone to be found under all the grim, was used. I have seen only one obvious snapped line and that was on a set of drop in 2x8 joist dictating the depth of the pockets, it was in a house.


Edited by TIMBEAL (09/27/16 02:16 PM)
Edit Reason: being dumb

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#34020 - 09/27/16 03:18 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: TIMBEAL]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 447
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
Hi Tim, I have seen recovered timber from a barn that had to get out of the way of a grocery store that had step rafter housings aligned to a red line on a plate. Other than that I think that the hewn timber was rough hewn in the woods, delivered to the work site and was corrected to a good enough state, I'm sure the lead told the men, "we ain't building a pie-anna." The cross grain layout would be striked with an awl against a large try square. The awl would be held in the groove of the story pole mark and the square brought up to the awl, the square held tight to the story pole and the awl is lifted off the story pole and then the line is striked. The gains are marked with a gauge set to the story pole. The story pole will bridge the undulations in the hewn beam. The other carpenter like solution could be a straight edge board set the dimension of the gain is aligned to the reference side and gains are marked with an awl. No caulk lines are really necessary with good enough timber. This is my conclusion from staring at old timber.

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#34021 - 09/27/16 08:12 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
That is gorgeous, Roger. I'm working in more story poles into my work. I think the tape measure makes me stupid, at times, or it could just be my eyes.

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#34022 - 09/27/16 09:38 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: TIMBEAL]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 447
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
Thanks Tim, it's good to know that this can be somehow useful to others. I presented these ideas years ago on this forum.

http://forums.tfguild.net/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=8402&page=1

I sometimes fear that my written stuff is not clear and needs a rewrite.

For story poles I mark up tapes. However, I have retired, so I am busy forgetting and losing hard won habits.

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#34023 - 09/27/16 10:21 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: TIMBEAL]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Hi Tim,

Your up there in the Cream of the Crop of really!!! old,and beautiful frames. Maine probably still has some of the oldest remaining frames in the country still found relatively undisturbed. About once every other year a 250 to 300 plus one will come up for restoration and or sale that is really grand. New Hampshire, Vermont, Massachusetts, and Connecticut all still have a wealth of nice frames (fewer each year however as Barns in general are an endangered species.)

I couldn't agree more (and I would like others views if they believe otherwise...and why?) that Maine is one of the states (and regions) that still is dominated by Scribe Ruled framing. Even the Square Rule more contemporary (for New England that can still be 150 years old) may have a mixing of Scribe and Square Rule.

From that perspective (and I should have clarified that before in my other post...sorry) your region's timber frame parts (barn or house) are not to be found with many interchangeable parts. The New England vintage timber framing traditions really held on, and not until you get south and into Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota do I find more purly Square Rule frames...which of course are much new (90 to 150 years old.)

Being where you are...you style reflects its traditions...as it should and you do very well by it...from the work you have shared that I have seen...
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#34024 - 09/27/16 10:34 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: Hylandwoodcraft]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Hi Sean,

You made some astute observations about our craft...

I would conservatively say...from reading a great deal (if not at least 80% of what is available on the subject in English and a few other languages) about timber framing...that at best only 60% (conservatively) of what is actually known in the way of means, methods and materials is actually in a publish format. Much (actually a great deal) has been lost as so much is (and was) an oral tradition. I have had this discussion with other academics outside of timber framing (yet still in the Arts and Crafts or related) that just between the last 200 years worth of wars, occupations by foreign invaders on all contents, and such, we have collectively lost a great deal in the way of traditional knowledge. The Civil War alone in this country between 1855 and 1865 erase a vast amount and Sons, Fathers and entire working lineages went away and did not return...leave deep holes within many traditions.

Douglas Brooks (a wonderful scholar and great friend) is a good example of someone salvaging this in just one area that is Japanese traditional boat building. Even though he is a foreigner, the lack of native interest for many of these very old boat builders put him in an excellent position to save what they knew from complete extinction. We hare lucky to have folks like him out in the world trying their best to save such vital heritage knowledge.

On just this topic of...Layout Systems...I garner we have only maybe 40% (at very best) written down and well documented for the next generation. I have been admonished by several collegues over the years to not writing more on just what little (or small amount from my perspective) I have learned that I know has never been written down, especially in English. Further, is putting it into context of how we can apply it in current means, methods, and material ways to contemporary timber framing.
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

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