Page 8 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#34025 - 09/28/16 02:06 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: Roger Nair]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 470
Loc: Vermont
Rodger,

Pennsylvanian examples are most evident of much of what you shared, that is agreed. Having lived and worked there for almost ten years (Gettysburg area) I found PA as a very expansive state when it came to Barns and other vintage timber frames. Almost the complete scope of the craft can be found within its boundaries, with more distinct New England traditions being the strongest examples and much different than is found the further West traveled.

As for caps on certain term, it is neither intended as "high handed" nor of any association with "High German" (??) It is from two former style guides for professional writing that out of habit I tend to still follow, and after this many years of use with no complaint thus far I don't believe there is any good reason now to "drop the caps," and the alternative of underlining or bolding key terms is burdensome.

Edge Rule came directly from Amish mentors (et al) in the 70's, and a term I have used in accordance from that time for over 35 years now. In my experience, as for first conversations on this subject with others beyond myself, I was acquainted with the terms Line, Scribe, and Edge/Square rule...int the very late 70's and early 80's with Ed Levin and/or Rudy Christian. I have been personally fascinated with the subject of Layout Systems since that time, and do enjoy discussions and learning more about it whenever the opportunity presents.

I am not sure using a Google Search alone is always indicative of acceptance of a term or expression since most folks only do (or achieve) very superficial parameter searches and neither try (or know how) to do more in depth advanced researches on many subjects...especially obscure ones like this.

I can offer, for those interested, that placing search terms in direct quotes along with also including the conjunction "and"- followed by a related topic term can dial in the search more specifically. For example:

"edge rule" and timber framing

Additionally, for even more comprehensive information, going to the orgin language, spelling and writing system can yield even great results. For example, for Line Rule most of this is either in Chinese, Korean or Japanese.
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34026 - 09/28/16 06:52 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1872
Loc: Maine
Jay, I live in the other Maine, the part east of the Penobscot River almost to the Canadian border. This part of Maine should have been Canada. Its a long story. Pre revolution there was much unrest in this part of Maine very unsettled while the southern part was settled much earlier and is present with the older building you mention. We weren't settled until after the indian wars just prior to the revolution and more settlement after so in the early 1800s and it really finalized with the war of 1812 when boundaries were really fixed and those pesky loyalist were sifted out. I am left with an actually dismal example of full on historic examples. It was not an easy life, and there was an abandoning of these old farms soon after the settlement. Very poor soils for farming most of the land was for timber harvest through much of history and still today.

Top
#34027 - 09/28/16 10:33 AM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 470
Loc: Vermont
You are blessed Tim...In my view. That part of Maine is beautiful and most special! Say hello to the Rive...it is a special one...

In another reincarnation (and career) I worked guiding in many parts of rural Maine, to the point of usually recertifying my WEMT credential there as Maine has some of the best emergency services in North America. My ties to the Passamaquoddy tribe also grew along the way...as did my affection for that region, it's people and environment...

As to surviving timber frames in your area...I now understand much better your perspective of things. I would wager (correct me if you believe I'm in error) that your region is virtually devoid of true Edge Ruled frames in the pure since, as this is very much a rough and rabble range of people, culture and archtiecture...so the surviving frames are probably mostly a mix or full on scribe rule with a dash of...this or that...for the few that survive.

I do believe on the boarder region there we still might still find a strong french influence to many architectural forms including rare examples of Piece sur Piece timber frame and log structures buried under plaster and more modern cladding.

Thanks for sharing that...
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34028 - 09/28/16 07:58 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1872
Loc: Maine
Hi Jay, yes a French essence still lingers. I have a friend that has recently been WEMT certified. This past August the Passamaquoddys at Pleasant Point just had their annual dance gathering, I was on business and only had the chance to glimpse the colorful dresses as I drove by. I wish I had stopped. It would be nice to chat in person some day as our paths cross on such matters.

We do have some very true to the detail square ruled frames, I mentioned they are typically churches and the occasional grange hall.

Top
#34029 - 09/28/16 09:14 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 470
Loc: Vermont
Dag Nabbit Tim...now I'm home sick Man!!!

I really do miss Maine, and your friend is lucky...the WEMT Certs in Maine are simply unmatched until you get to perhaps Alaska and then there not better...just comparable. I have often tried to explain to those unfamiliar with Maine just how vast it is within regions of other parts of New England. It is very much like Alaska or parts of Wyoming or Montana. When we took ambulance duty (unlike most EMT basics from most regions) you became accustomed to the 2 to 3 hours you had to care for a patient...not the normal 10 to 20 minutes that most Emergency Care staff experience.

I missed that about Churches and Grange Hall before...sorry. It makes since though as many Timberwrights of that time periods had...niches...they worked in like Churches. Churches and other public building work often pulled in a Framer from some distance away (which you probably knew that) and it was there specialty, while the farmhouse or barn was often just a talented local person or the Farmer himself. I think there is a publication someplace about the historical Churches of Maine...If I find it, I will post a link to it.
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34031 - 09/29/16 09:04 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: Roger Nair]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 470
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Roger Nair

It was not until Jack Sobon published the square rule, scribe rule booklet that the terms used in the title appeared in the general discussion...


Hello Roger, et al,

This passage has been eating at me for a number of days now...I thank you for it...as it has been making my brain itch!!

For someone that has been at this and related crafts for so dang long and spent entirely too many sleepless nights in dusty stacks of documents (before they all got digitised...ha, ha) when I read something or hear something that seems out of context...it just won't let go of my brain.

This is not a "...a new reordering of knowledge that was truly lost and had to be regained," by any stretch of the imagination. The topic of Layout (with its many terms in multiple languages and traditions) and its many methods has kept many a Wright of Woods of all sorts from Shipwright to Cooper up pondering the methods. It has also been part of the..."general discussion," well before Jack's time, or any of his publications. He is well read and known now for instilling a great deal of interest in our craft with his wonderful published works...no doubt!! Nevertheless, he was not, nor is the progenitor of this topic contemporarily...not by any means. Many of us, way back in the 70's began (like generations before in these Wood Crafts) started asking and reading old text...or those around us passing on knowledge...how to lay out all manner of thing...from templating a Vase, to Long Coat and on to lofting a small Schooner or Timber Frame Barn.

So, on that note, what had eaten at me these past few days was...Where the heck did I read..."Square Rule," for the first time. I knew I was pretty sure "Edge Rule" was from my Amish Mentors, and I know I have heard Rudy C. and Ed L. both used these terms in discussions well before any of the books we have contemporarily publish on the subject today. I just couldn't pull out from my memory where I got to reading about Square Rul???

Today I am pretty sure I found the first source reference of which I read this burried in my notes...!!

"Civil Architecture" by Edward Shaw 1836 pg 143 from his chapter on Carpentry and the section on Framing. Shaw goes on to describe both Scribe Rule and Square Rule to some length.

There is more in other text that I am unable to gather at this time. I have been after this subject for some time now, and a number of us firmly believe the roots to Square Rule are in Shipwrighting, as this craft is closely related and connected to the work of the Timberwright both now and historically. During the beginning of the Industrial Revolution, Layout became a focal point in many wood related industries...ship design and building be a major one, with framing (aka timber framing) being a firm second and/or equal..



Edited by Jay White Cloud (09/29/16 09:09 PM)
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34032 - 09/29/16 09:04 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 470
Loc: Vermont
Hello All...

I think this will be (or should be??) my last post on this thread. The topic of Layout for timber framing is a vast and in depth one. It is a subject I have studied at some length for well over 30 years now.

Because of this conversation and some rather excellent participation in my view, I think starting a new post thread is warranted. Further, I am (per Will B. et al's suggestion) will be writing a piece for our Journal over the next few months that should have some worth and quality by spring 2017 for that quarter's publication (if I can pull everything together in my head and notes...ha, ha.)

The new post will revisit much of what was written here, so do bear with me for the beginning. "Out of Wind" was excellent, but I feel this topic should be expanded and specifically titled to..."Layout In Timber Framing...Historic Practices and Contemporary Applications Of Them"...

The post thread will explore what I have learn and hope to outline in the article...PLUS...anything and everything others think of, would like to see, and our have views about.

Warm Regards,

j
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34033 - 09/30/16 08:36 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: jjboudreau19]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1872
Loc: Maine
Before you go Jay, I need to clarify my position on universal parts of a frame fitting in various location. It is hard for me to put a piece from one part of the frame that had an intended spot and simply just put it some place else in the frame. Although some pieces are able to be put in any slot, like braces and some girts. Even top plates can we switched, depending on bent spacing and the like. The hard part for me, I realized today as I was sorting pieces of a frame we are raising, is in the layout. When I put a bunch of pieces out on the bunks for cutting they have to be in order, logical order. 1-6 all south side post. They get marked with crayon and race knife as a final marking. It simply goes against my system to mix things up. This orientation that starts in the shop and continues until the thing stands.

Top
#34034 - 09/30/16 11:35 PM Re: Out of wind. [Re: TIMBEAL]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 470
Loc: Vermont
Hey Tim...

No worries...I will still follow along here, and post directly when addressed like you have now. We will be revisiting all this in the new post thread as I do feel a bit Sheepish in kidnapping this one as we all have...(no harm though...its been great!!)

I do want to explore much of this and compare personal notes and observations among all we can get to participate in what they have done, seen and/or researched...I will be asking many direct question for comparative analysis (of sorts) between our findings and perspectives...

Now to your points...and good ones they are...!

First, I think your perception of timber framing systems and approach modalities clearly reflects the normative cultural exposure you have to the craft in general...To me, it clearly reflects you being up there in Maine and understanding timber framing (in general) from that perspective...It even explains part of our not to distant conversation about extremely tapered pegs!!! It was pointed out to me, and on visit soon after that extreme taper in Trunnel is common in some regions...if not the norm...Maine being one of them! So again we have a stylization and moteff that still is having a effect (perhaps even subconsciously) on those that live in a Region.

I believe every word of what you wrote. I also believe (in that context and your system approach to framing) that enchantability is not as fluid or part of the system as it can be found in others...In fact, for your region and your frames...it probably just does not work. I can think of times and projects where our frames would reflect exactly the same perspective.

On the frame we are on now at 8m wide and over 45m long with 6m bays, we have a much more...well Asian...motif (actually Prairie Style to be more accurate with a Craftsman Period flair.) other than a few pieces on the gable end with a scattering hear and there...all primary pieces are virtually interchangeable to the point of not even getting specific labels until just before raising...The toggle keys (small free tenons) that lock the Corbels to the Upper Chords (aka Top Plates) number in the thousands and are mass produced to fit there mortise. The list goes on, but you get the gist...

I look forward to getting the new post up and running in a few day...I do so look forward to seeing you there with others!!!

Regards,

j
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
Page 8 of 8 < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

Moderator:  Jim Rogers, mdfinc 
Newest Members
Alvin, wildboar, DWS07, Arbortech, mcfabb
4713 Registered Users