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#33907 - 08/12/16 07:33 AM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: barnz]
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Western NY
So, what does the installer and the SIP manufacturer have to say? It seems like they should have some useful input into the issue.

Perhaps Dave and Barnz, your panel's seismic activity could be harnessed as a form of renewable energy. I can see it now, the SIPSPGS, the SIP Seismic Power Generation System! wink The system could also be extended to harness the power released as green timber checks. It's going to be the hottest thing since the tiny house!

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#33911 - 08/16/16 10:25 AM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: barnz]
barnz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/16
Posts: 4
Loc: ny
Here's some more input from the homeowners- noise is definitely sharp cracking. They have watched the timber checks and are confident that the timbers are stable now.
They are sure the noises are coming from several spots in the roof but can't locate the noise, probably because the entire house is one full cathedral ceiling and sound bounces around everywhere. They don't think there are any moisture issues.

They are asking if adding more screws from panels to timbers will fix the problem? Has anyone tried this before?

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#33912 - 08/16/16 11:21 AM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: barnz]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Hi Barnz,

If the noise emanating from the panels is indeed a sharp "cracking" then the likelihood of some critter being the sources is low to none...

These sounds are indicative (usually?) of two things (especially on roof:)

1. Age induced thermal expansion contraction cycles of the panels as they warm and cool.

2. Shear fracture of the attachment screws, which create a loud audible snap or crack when they do fail.

The later can become a cascade effect as more and more of the attachment hardware is compromised and lost...only leaving less of the screws to do more of the work. This is also indicative of a SIP company (or project facilitator/DIYer) that did not use the appropriate number of attachment screws to begin with.

Removing a roof and adding more hardware is one solution. Another I have seen is "cleating and bracking" systems added from the inside of a frame that does alter the aesthetic but can be performed in some cases not to be to invasive, or unpleasing.

I agree with Sean..."What does the installer and the SIP manufacture have to say?" I would be curious to understand there view, support and responsibility they would be willing to take in all this?

Good luck and keep us up to speed with your findings and solution...


Edited by Jay White Cloud (08/16/16 11:22 AM)
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#33913 - 08/16/16 09:13 PM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: barnz]
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Western NY
It seems to me that any expansion and contraction or friction related causes should have some sort of discernable pattern.
For example, wind from certain directions causing creaking or popping being especially noticeable as a roof surface heats up in the sun. Do you have any sense of what the pattern is? If you can determine the pattern it will go a long way in narrowing possibilities down.
If there is no pattern then it seems more likely to be something oddball and more ominous (like the fastener shear that Jay mentioned). I just can't imagine osb and foam making a sharp cracking sound under normal circumstances.

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#33914 - 08/17/16 01:47 AM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: Hylandwoodcraft]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 446
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
I do not imagine that thermal expansion of osb can cause panel screws to shear for several reasons.

1. Thermal expansion in wood products is real but expansion is not likely equal on the inner and outer plies osb. The outer ply on the sunny side will heat in the sun but the inner ply is insulated from the sun and will likely be close in temperature to the timber frame, rafters and purlins. Without a wide temperature differential the shear potential between the inner panel of osb and frame is limited. The thermal coefficient of expansion in wood is expressed in rather small increments. In the long grain direction 1.5 to 2.5 times 10^-6 inches per degree Fahrenheit. I did not find a value for osb but the magnitude of the coefficient should be not far removed especially with close temperature. Yes there could be a difference between inner and outer plies but I believe the screws will flex rather than transmit a shearing force to the inner panel.

2. Suppose a shearing force could be generated, what's stronger wood fiber or a steel screw? I believe the fiber will crush before the steel will shear.

The fly in the ointment will be the gap between the sips, effective gaskets, cold roof technique, liquid water, vapor drive and atmospheric moisture. Another concern is the sips advocates will remove bracing from the frame and rely on the diaphragm for structural rigidity.


Edited by Roger Nair (08/17/16 01:57 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#33915 - 08/17/16 01:29 PM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: barnz]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
My post was only meant to indicate common sources for sound emanations...and not to suggest that a fastener would typically fail from expansion/contraction...Unless, there hasn't been enough of them used to attach the panels. It those cases expansion/contraction only exacerbated the over load the panels are under, and can lead to failure either in complete shear or sagging...

I agree that a panal expansion/contraction (typically) would not be an underlying cause for fasteners to shear, and/or fail all on its own.

I would further share (in light of one of Sean's observations) that foam panels themselves typically may offer a more of "winning" or "squeaking" sound as they expand and contract...not a sharp cracking sound.

In some examples, panels have been "glued on." These few occasions I have experienced (either as an extra level of attachment, or in some cases in an attempt to use less mechanical fasteners.) Can lead to a cracking sound as the glue joint either fails or expands/contracts.
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#33916 - 08/18/16 08:44 AM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: barnz]
Hylandwoodcraft Offline
Member

Registered: 03/23/11
Posts: 141
Loc: Western NY
I would imagine that a crack associated with fasteners shearing would indicate an overall slipping of the panels down the roof, or the top face slipping in relation to the bottom face. That is certainly possible, especially if not enough fasteners are used to begin with, but would probably make some sort of noticeable structural effect (Deformed overhangs, cracked drywall, leaking roofing).

We don't really have enough detail from the OP to make any better observations. We need to know more details and patterns around the noise.
Another question... Is it a drywall ceiling or T&G?

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#33917 - 08/18/16 11:59 AM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: barnz]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Agree Sean, and more information would really be needed to delve deeper into these aberrant sounds. Apparently something is alarming the residents of this frame, yet I think (and hope) that it is probably just the normal sounds associated with this form of timber frame architecture...when SIPs are employed in there construction...
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#33965 - 09/01/16 06:29 PM Re: frame and SIPs noises [Re: barnz]
barnz Offline
Member

Registered: 08/09/16
Posts: 4
Loc: ny
Thanks for your ideas. Installer says it was all done right. panel company says sips and timberframes always make noise, if it's excessive it must be moisture somewhere.
No new specifics from the homeowner so I'm going there next week to sit and listen until I finally hear it myself. Stay tuned! Thanks!

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