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#33983 - 09/17/16 08:51 PM Re: Floor Dead and Live Loads for Small TF [Re: EPops]
northern hewer Offline
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Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 1098
hello everyone tonight

great discussion, and one that one needs to ponder somewhat

this is my take

up until the 20th century there was virtually little or no concrete at least as we know it so-----

what were the floors made up of----well--surprisingly a clay surface --no stones--compacted and leveled--just a great healthy environment to work on just like outdoors

when you think about it 99% of hewing took place in a special outdoor area with about 6" of topsoil to protect the tools

a small section could be floored--if it is an area like the one you have utilizing t&g flooring place on top of bedded timbers

I personnaly have worked, hewed and timberframed in a variety of areas-- wood floors--2" flooring on joists,--threshing barn floors--again a wood floor, of about 2.5" in thickness-slip tongued- placed over timber, also on cement shop floors, my preference is outside under a nice tree.

I have applied a wood floor structure over cement--worked well--and nice to work on,

The cement floor has its good and bad points, nice to clean up for sure, not a good environment for sharp tools, and will take heavy loads

wood floors--well the nail heads a sore point--also not a nice environment for sharp tools--this can be avoided by using wood pins as a holding medium or hidden nails

in summary though I will admit that I worked many winters in heated areas that had wood floors covering a wide spectrum of joists, timbers--a lot of threshing floors--great areas--but for my money I like the outdoors and ground covered with chips, if the weather is favourable

like the subject

Richard
NH

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#33984 - 09/17/16 10:23 PM Re: Floor Dead and Live Loads for Small TF [Re: northern hewer]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Great Post Richard, thanks for adding your voice to the conversation...

I have been to a number of conferences over the years where those in the Cement Industry try (erroneously I would suggest) to compare modern portland cements (OPC) to the vintage cements and pozzolanics of acient Europe, Middle East,Asia, and even the wonderful Natural Rosendale Cements of New York state (now once again in production.) There is simply no comparison of modern OPC with natural and/or vintage cements/pozzolans/geopolymers as we still can not build anything like the Pantheon even today...This acient technology evades most (not all) contemporary builders.

I love your point about being under a tree on a robust layer of chips...It's wonderful I do agree and perhaps one of the best places to joint a frame!

As to wooden floors with nails...I could not agree more with your observation, and why I float and/or joint my wood floors to exclude any metal fasteners whenever possible. This turn in the conversation also reminds me of traditional Puncheon Floors (of which I have restore and/or laid a few) and how they rest, just as you eluded too, on a clay or gravel dias often the same as the sill or plinth stones rest upon. This even has merit for our OP (EPops) as he could just frame the structure onto plinth or sills and lay an independent Puncheon Floor to work on. These are both very solid, yet forgiving to dropped tools and old backs (ha, ha.)

Clay (cobb, adobe, etc) floors to are still a common example throughout the built world even today. Probably one of the most common floor systems still employed by most vernacular builders (worldview) in domestic architecture at least for a section of the architecture and/or the entire ground floor areas.

EPops has lots of choices to choose from...

Regards,

j


Edited by Jay White Cloud (09/17/16 10:25 PM)
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#33986 - 09/18/16 06:02 AM Re: Floor Dead and Live Loads for Small TF [Re: EPops]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
To continue... I also have a 20'x 60' shed attached off the back of my mill building where we process blueberries for fresh pack. This has a concrete floor as well with a long drain in one section. During the harvest season the machine gets washed down and a concrete floor is a part of the system. One of the evils we have to contend with.

Back in the mill building there are times when there is a good layer of wood chips on the floor, a natural floor that comes and goes.

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#33988 - 09/18/16 06:29 PM Re: Floor Dead and Live Loads for Small TF [Re: EPops]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
As a side note Tim (perhaps of interest??) these types of buildings in times gone by (yet coming back) like Cranberry Barns and related, had brick floors bedded in sand which provided a surface harder than wood but still very drainable and less stiff than monolithic concrete. Some had wood only made of something like White Oak...sometimes of just engrain bedded in sand like the brick.

Some of the contemporary versions (one I know of in Rhode Island..I think? it's RI..is a timber frame) where they use a hardened rubber brick made of recycled material. These are often now used in Equine Barns as well. It turns the entire floor into a drain system of sorts, with the drain piping accessible in Service Troughs for clean out, much friendlier to stand and work on. Some slabs are getting covered with these as well now as an upgrade to the surface.

I liked what you shared about the wood chips...I know of many folks that leave a shallow layer on there concrete slabs just for the reasons we have discussed thus far.
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#33989 - 09/18/16 07:26 PM Re: Floor Dead and Live Loads for Small TF [Re: EPops]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1875
Loc: Maine
The chips are deep enough to require a tractor to pull it out. Barn drainage may be different than mashed blueberries, but good info. We do put mats down at the pick over table to stand on. In the future I have thought of a metal mesh floor to stand on and drain. I almost put a clay floor down in the shed off the back of the mill building but was I labeled radical, and it got canned.

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#33990 - 09/18/16 07:42 PM Re: Floor Dead and Live Loads for Small TF [Re: EPops]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 480
Loc: Vermont
Well...I liked your idea about a clay floor system...!

There is lots of water use in the Cranberry industry...most things get really wet since the fruit grows in bogs. I am glad you at least have mats to stand on...that's great.

Most folks today would think it radical to have a clay floor system...I am sure. You know that if it can't be bought at a Big Box Store...or...from and industry factory..it's not a good idea. I am too often asking folks what they thich we did (so often much better with better materials) before all the modern consumer products came about.

Clay and/or a clay matrix dias on gravel would have been superior to concrete other than a freeze thaw issue perhaps, but that too can be worked around and is better than concrete slabs...
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#33991 - 09/19/16 01:51 AM Re: Floor Dead and Live Loads for Small TF [Re: EPops]
D Wagstaff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 248
I work on a clay floor in one section of the barn. It can be a bit dusty. Had rabbits once that liked to dig in there and now the dog. One day I'll get to repair the damage done.

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