Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#34163 - 05/01/17 11:13 PM seasoned sitka spruce
DFLICK Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/17
Posts: 2
Loc: Wrangell,AK
I have recently found a pile of milled, planed and seasoned (it has been sitting covered for years) straight grained sitka spruce timbers. The lady is asking kind of a lot for it all. I want to build a timber frame and i am wondering if this is a good find/ buy?

Top
#34164 - 05/01/17 11:47 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Hello DFLICk,

Timber frames are normally built of green lumber, not dry or seasoned. It is only a current trend among some that have started employing wood dried in modern kilns like Douglas Fir. It is far from traditional nor necessary.

As such these timber could well be dry (or not...as they take decades to completely dry out) but they could also be distorted. If she is asking more than the going rate for any fresh timber of the same species in your region...??...

Its too much...

Hope that helps...

j
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34165 - 05/02/17 03:30 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Jay White Cloud]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 267
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Jay White Cloud
Hello DFLICk,

Timber frames are normally built of green lumber, not dry or seasoned.


Unless they are built using second-hand timbers from an old frame, seasoned sometimes up to hundreds of years.


Edited by Cecile en Don Wa (05/02/17 03:31 AM)
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34168 - 05/02/17 02:48 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 446
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
I would not find a problem, generally speaking, in using seasoned wood rather than green wood. I would count the ring density per inch as an indicator of strength, higher the count greater the strength and weight. Do you know where the timber was grown, Sitka spruce range from northern California to Alaska, more northern timber is heavier and stronger than southern timber, in general? Seasoned timber should require less offset if you are draw boring and will more likely conform to the shape it was cut.

It really boils down to cost, engineering requirement, suitability of the stock and available substitution. So the range of answers flows from perfect to crap. Really there is nothing to work with here to give any answers.

Top
#34169 - 05/02/17 08:21 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
DFLICK Offline
Member

Registered: 05/01/17
Posts: 2
Loc: Wrangell,AK
This is Alaska grown sitka spruce. I could probably cut my own logs and get green timbers made for a lot cheaper. Would that be better and how long should i let them sit before building?

Top
#34170 - 05/02/17 08:40 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Hi DFLICK,

You really don't need to wait any longer than it takes to get them hewn or milled for you to layout and cut joints on them...

I often build frames from all manner (and species) of timber that may have been a tree less than a week?month or so before they are in a frame. Greenwoodworking is an art of its own accord and timber framing is part of that...

Enjoy and go with the less expensive wood, unless she would like to sell the logs to you at current (fare) market price for logs. If her's are actually still logs or large timbers, there not really worth more just because they are sitting someplace drying...If anything they should cost less, as they are going to be more difficult to cut and joint...generally speaking...


Edited by Jay White Cloud (05/02/17 08:52 PM)
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34171 - 05/02/17 08:43 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa
...Unless they are built using second-hand timbers from an old frame, seasoned sometimes up to hundreds of years.


This is very true... wink

But that is the exception to the craft not the rule, nor the way it was traditionally practiced...

I'm on a frame restoration now that has a cut frame from 1830 and one from 1790...The wood is very dry, and much less pleasant to work in than "green wood."
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34172 - 05/02/17 08:51 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Roger Nair]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Roger Nair
I would count the ring density per inch as an indicator of strength, higher the count greater the strength and weight...


Depending on species perhaps as many second and third growth hardwoods are much stronger than old growth...Weight to can be the same or even heavier depending on growing conditions...

Originally Posted By: Roger Nair
...Sitka spruce range from northern California to Alaska, more northern timber is heavier and stronger than southern timber, in general?


That has not been my experience with this species...Second growth often is stronger and more applicable to contemporary timber framing.

Quote:
Seasoned timber should require less offset if you are draw boring and will more likely conform to the shape it was cut.


Green wood...being flexible...in my experience always is more conforming in joinery and application than dry wood. Then again, this perhaps is why, traditionally Timberwrights predominantly employ green wood...At least that has been my experience...

Quote:
Really there is nothing to work with here to give any answers.


???
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34174 - 05/02/17 10:39 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 446
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
Jay, it must be miserable to gainsay every point made not directed to you. If you consider context of a pile of seasoned Sitka Spruce, then my points will have some relevance, unlike the properties of ring porous hardwoods. Within the context of same species softwoods: higher the ring count, higher the specific gravity, additionally, higher the specific gravity higher the strength.

Your comment on second growth typically applies to ring porous hardwood such as oak. Forest grown (slow growth) softwoods are the stronger than plantation grown (rapid growth or second growth) softwoods.



"Quote:
Really there is nothing to work with here to give any answers.


???"

Jay, in order to understand a concluding sentence, read and process the paragraph and the question of the original post in the topic.

Top
#34176 - 05/02/17 11:24 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Roger...point is...taking a counter view based more on opinion than actually applicable understanding often becomes distracting and deleterious to a productive conversation...

You have all the right to your perspectives, yet your closing comment...

"Really there is nothing to work with here to give any answers."

...seems to basically suggest, that my shared perspective was moot, and the OP wasn't providing enough information to warrant being given a germane answer...

I'm sorry, we disagree on that and several other perspectives I shared.

As to misery...not at all...As to "gainsay," I again apologize if I feel it applicable and appropriate to take a different perspective than you on the subject...
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34177 - 05/03/17 12:57 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Jay White Cloud]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 446
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
The original post asked the question "is this a good find/buy?"
Did you answer that directly? My answer was the entire last short paragraph that mentioned the relevant concerns cost, engineering need, suitability of the stock and available options, of which the OP did not enlighten. So my answer is no answer unless other info comes in. That is the meaning.

I refer you to Understanding Wood by Bruce Hoadley and The Wood Handbook for the basis of my expressed opinion about softwood characteristics concerning ring count, strength and specific gravity. The opinion concerning the changes due to shrinkage by moisture loss vs dry stock can be verified by the above and just about any carpentry text.

"As to "gainsay," I again apologize if I feel it applicable and appropriate to take a different perspective than you on the subject" That is directly not an apology but an affirmation of a tactic. Why not drop weasel words? To me gainsay means troll and by quoting me four times in a single post for some form of appropriate correction with misleading, non relevant and confused facts is neither helpful or clearly reasoned.

Top
#34179 - 05/03/17 04:05 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Jay White Cloud]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 267
Loc: the Netherlands
Originally Posted By: Jay White Cloud
Originally Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa
...Unless they are built using second-hand timbers from an old frame, seasoned sometimes up to hundreds of years.


This is very true... wink

But that is the exception to the craft not the rule, nor the way it was traditionally practiced...

I'm on a frame restoration now that has a cut frame from 1830 and one from 1790...The wood is very dry, and much less pleasant to work in than "green wood."


Surprised at your claim here, with the exception of your subjective preference for the working properties of green versus dry wood which is indisputable, (your experience, not the difference between the two), given the wide ranging exposures you tout.


Edited by Cecile en Don Wa (05/03/17 04:06 AM)
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34180 - 05/03/17 07:15 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 446
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
In the interest of good order I resign from this thread.

Top
#34182 - 05/03/17 08:07 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 267
Loc: the Netherlands
You equate good order with clarity & debate?
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34183 - 05/03/17 08:24 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 446
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
Don, since you asked, yes but reflexive contradiction is neither clear nor debate. I suggest Monty Python's skit of a man going into a shop requesting an argument, he enters an office, gets abuse then states he has came for an argument and gets directed to another office where he gets gainsay and contradiction.

Meta discussion is good but represents drift and might be better handled in another thread.


Edited by Roger Nair (05/03/17 08:33 AM)

Top
#34184 - 05/03/17 09:14 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Morn'n Cecile, Roger, et al...

Roger...please don't resign from the conversation...Just understand that it is supposed to be that..."a conversation."

We don't have to (nor should we) be each other's sycophants and agree on everything, nor does having different viewpoints, experiences, or understandings need to turn into debate. We don't agree or have different experiences...big deal.

Reframing my own thoughts/views around quotes from others is simply a method of clarifying an understanding of what is being said/written. There is no other motivation there, just like in a classroom, lecture, or simple "written" detailed conversation on what is suppose to be a technical forum of variously experienced professionals. So please stay, understand I respect you, but don't always agree with you...I loved Monty Python...Thanks for the memory...but my request is for erudite conversation...not argument.

Hey Cecil,

You got it...

My first love of timber framing was in barn building and restoration...As I learned more, I also became a close follower of things like the Bura Conventions on professional standards in the restoration of historic fabrics (i.e. fabric being stone, wood, earth, or whatever made up the historic object.) The ethos of Burra and related professional standards has always been..."Like for like, in means, methods, and materials," whenever it is possible to do so. As such, greenwood was the way, and from the restoration work ing old wood, I learn quickly it was much more forgiving to work in green wood than dry, just as our forebears did it.

I also then, very much, fell in love with the folk styles from most cultures of Green Woodworking in general, be it a chair, floor, bowel, spoon or any manner of domestic item.

For the OP if he/she does have a choice, I would suggest fresh wood over aged...but that's just my perspective of it...

Regards,

j
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34186 - 05/04/17 05:22 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
D Wagstaff Offline
Member

Registered: 02/17/12
Posts: 246
Reflexive contradiction, debate, conversation, argument..., it beats the empty active topic page because in terms of what's to choose on internet in English, I have found no better source on the topic than this Timber Guild site with the exception of lately when it became just a tool swapping site. Rodger is probably correct to conclude that blather probably is not a sustainable platform though. Where are those forum cops that used to pipe in? Ok, I'd better stop now.

I wonder Jay what you mean by fresh or green wood? Maybe limited to use as timbers, if you know what I mean because while I'm glad you have your passions, personally I don't give a hoot about carving spoons or bowels.


Edited by D Wagstaff (05/04/17 05:27 AM)

Top
#34187 - 05/04/17 06:54 PM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: D Wagstaff]
Roger Nair Offline
Member

Registered: 10/20/99
Posts: 446
Loc: Bakerton, WV, USA
My posting in this forum is my thank you to the Guild for what I have gained from membership, fellowship and education. Although I am out of business, I remain in the forum to help since much was freely given to me. I fear the apathy and disconnect will one day shut the ignored forum. I appeal to all interested to post. I do not post that often because I am not comfortable posting on all matters of concern and posts that go unanswered are quietly begging for attention, who will answer?

This is an immediate method to query, answer and associate. Join in!!! If left to the few, the forum could disappear before one could wave goodbye. This is a great resource for self initiated outreach.

Top
#34188 - 05/05/17 01:10 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Josh Leatherman Offline
Member

Registered: 01/24/09
Posts: 9
Loc: Seward, Alaska
How much is a lot $? Are they free of heart center? Are they still straight? Using dry seasoned timbers vs fresh cut is a no brainer.They will move much less then fresh cut timbers making your finish product look much better/tighter. If they need to be resaw get them resawn. The cost of kiln drying in AK is cost prohibited. How long have they been seasoning? Feel free to give me a call.

Josh Leatherman
Precision Timberworks
www.timberframingalaska.com
907-362-7688

Top
#34189 - 05/05/17 02:26 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Quote:
I wonder Jay what you mean by fresh or green wood? Maybe limited to use as timbers, if you know what I mean because while I'm glad you have your passions, personally I don't give a hoot about carving spoons or bowels.


It seems we all have perspectives, and though in some cases it is considered poor form to validate our viewpoints, by expressing our experience this can sound...well??...grandiose or in poor form. I don't like doing it, but just too often, I am confronted by viewpoints being shared that are based on such narrow and/or limited experience within this and related crafts...that frankly I do grow quite frustrated in how dogmatic those limited views are...(and no I don't even like what I just wrote...but what the heck here goes the rest of it anyway...)

Some have heard/read this before...some haven't...but besides having apprenticed traditionally in this craft with Old Order Amish Barnwrightss from the time I was 13 til 23 years of age when I joined the US Marines...I grew up in a household (and friendships) of artisans from Textilesist and Blacksmiths...to stone carvers and ceramicists...It was a blessed gift to say the least...

So now...some 46 years of working in and around these Folk Arts including being a Timberwright that has gotten to befriend the likes of Ed Levine (whom I miss so much) and seeing beautiful frames around this globe of ours, I just like to share what I think might be a little more experience than most and perhaps a little broader exposure to the craft than many...Perhaps??

So...It is a "no brainer"...(at least from my perspective and view) that the use of...Dry Timber...to make a frame is not only outside the historical context of the craft (which it most certainly is) it is also an absolute pain in the Arse...!!!!

In closing, as per a conversation just today working with other very gifted Timberwrights on a restoration project here in Texas, this forum discussion came up over lunch. The consensus was anyone that thinks cutting a frame from dry wood is appropriate...??..(quoting here)..."...is daft or lacks understanding and experience in the craft..." (don't shoot the messenger please!) But seriously folks...the 250 plus year old dried Hemlock, Pine, Tulip Poplar, Maple, Oak, and Spruce we are working with currently is as dry as it comes and a royal pain in the kester to work with compared to green timber...just as it has been for the millenia this craft has been practiced...and the reason most (virtually all mind you) are cut in green wood...I also must take umbrage that a frame has to be full of gapes or have major issues if cut with green wood compared to dry...IT DOES NOT...if done correctly...at least our's typically don't...

Just my view, again that seems to counter with others, but I will stand behind it, and the reasonable quantity of experience I think I have...and hope some take some value in it...
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34190 - 05/05/17 05:24 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 267
Loc: the Netherlands
Using dry wood is inappropriate? What a laughable statement, especially in the context of the rest of the text, but I'll be sure and pass it and the source on to my acquaintance down in Bordeaux whose got a yard full of blackened oak timbers old as the hills and who never would think to complain about using them or fresh wood. Dry or otherwise, it's just different not better or worse, that's all.

Still no clarity on what's even being discussed. What is fresh or seasoned wood?
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34193 - 05/05/17 08:42 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 479
Loc: Vermont
Quote:
Still no clarity on what's even being discussed. What is fresh or seasoned wood?


I might have missed something...But I think the OP ask if (paraphrasing here) if:

dry wood is worth paying more for than fresh timber to cut a frame...

My view it is not at all worth more money for dry wood, and as Josh pointed out, there are many other questions to ask about that wood, which I do most certainly agree with.

If there is more "clarity" needed, perhaps it's in having those questions answered that Josh shared...I can see that, but only to a point.

Quote:
Dry or otherwise, it's just different not better or worse, that's all.


That is a perspective, and every Timberwright I have worked with would never choose a dry timber over green if they had a choice, it would seem some here feel otherwise, and that is fine.

As to "better or worse" I think the PE I have worked with for 30 years plus would say there are some huge differences...both good and bad...between dry and green timbers.

Then again, we are on a spectrum of experiences, understanding, and valuation here in this portion of the discussion. If someone like beating the living hell out of themselves and their tools working dry timber, go for it, as in that regard you can still get great joinery and beautiful frames...I know, we are doing right now...but she is a gnarly beast to get to compared to unseasoned timbers...


Edited by Jay White Cloud (05/05/17 08:43 AM)
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34194 - 05/05/17 09:31 AM Re: seasoned sitka spruce [Re: DFLICK]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 267
Loc: the Netherlands
Does your PE think peaches are better than pears too?

What a bunch of reflexive contradictions!
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 >

Moderator:  Jim Rogers, mdfinc 
Newest Members
RokoAxe, xavier, Will_LTB, BorisG, bls2017
4729 Registered Users