For me Robinia pseudoacacia the Black Locus itself is readily available making it desirable on that account alone as framing material. In the past I have worked with the wood incidentally and find it's ideally suitable for making pegs but not sure about the practicalities of making a whole construction out of this wood, to include squaring up the timbers with axes. Has anyone made a comparable use of this wood?

I've hewn and framed with black locust. Only with it green. It works well, maybe comparable to red oak. Has a sickly green color when it's fresh, and then changes to a lovely orange.

I've worked with kiln dried boards as well, and it's very hard--can't drive a screw or nail into it.

Hi Cecile,

I have, over the years built a number things from this species...including entire bents, restored several old barns comprising mainly of this species...a challenge course and obstacle course...and a few more structures...

Like Brad, I have typically worked it only green (like most timber framing elements) as when dry it is very resistant to tools...

I can say, from my experience and view of it, it lends itself really well to the Asian systems of timber framing, especially Japanese - Minka and other "live edge" modalities...

The unusual shapes these limbs and trucks take on when mature offer a wonderful effect both fully in the round or flattened on just two sides...

Hope that was of some use...

Regards,

j

Alright, thanks for the great responses, just what I was hoping for as guidance. One aspect I was thinking might be a drawback is how fibrous it is but that is maybe only apparent when working with split and riven wood.
It is the waney character that is also interesting to me Jay but I had the old timber frames of Normandy or even the Saxon barns out in Drenthe in mind rather than the far afield Japanese farmhouses,and going with a scribe lay out but I will most likely be squaring the timbers.
Alright, I'm pretty convinced. Now I will go select out the stems, any advice for the selection process? It's for converting my falling-down chicken coop to a bake house or forge, (I haven't decided which yet).

Oddly enough, I've found that the larger locust logs around here often have a lot of the pith rotten out. So it's hard to saw out good sized timbers.

I had a look on Tuesday, more than that I put in my order, and I will take nothing larger than a 19 cm top end diameter to spare on waste. At that age the pith was still sound from what I could see. It brings up an interesting point and that is the boxed hart and given the stems are not straight - by intention and design - how it will behave on seasoning.

Hey Cecile,

Per some of the recent posts...

It is fibrous, so riven work beyond shingles and such, can be challenging...but doable. The style and use of such riven pieces tend to lend themselves to more Asian styles of building, and that the only reason I suggest it. I am sure all styles could be adapted...I think for a Normandy or Saxon Barn this would be a great species to employ!


I do like using it in the round often as well, especially for natural base children's playground equipment or elements of tactical and athletic Challenge and Obstacle Courses. It is extremely durable under such applications...

The practice of "Sewari" (spine splitting) is also very advantages with this species to keep it from checking rudely or too much...

It mills very nicely when solid logs are located, because in some regions (as Brad shared) it does tend to naturally hollow out at the near the base and root collar of the tree. In larger specimens this isn't a really big issue, as these often provide a great bolt section for milling quarter sawn flooring and furniture boards. I would note that not all regions are challenged with this characteristic for some reason? I have seen trees near a meter in diameter that are solid to the pith...

I look forward to what you think and learn while working this species for your project...

Regards,

j

Very interesting to work with this wood this way. Just getting used to it I find it challenging to surface, every little mistake seems magnified the wood being brutal and not forgiving. It cuts so crisply but with grain direction change bad tear-out seems hard to avoid. Compromise would be to work perpendicular or cross grain all the time foregoing a real smooth surface in exchange for consistency.

The progress till now.

Nice Work!!! challenges and all!

Thanks for some great photos too...

You may have know if this already (???) I have found in recent years an old method...I guess you could call it "pseudo-hewing" (???) shared with me decades ago that seems to work well with such a species as Elm, Locust, Osage, etc...

Instead of employing an edged tool (aka axe) to create the Joggles up to the layout lines...We use a saw to kerf...sometimes closer together...sometime further apart than what you would find standard with many hewing practices...

For this type of hewing the primary tools are saws, wedges/gluts, roundel slicks/gouges, and scrub planes...A hewing axe/hatchet can be employ at certain stages and or straighter grain...

The method is extremely accurate for such species and very fast for others as well. I would also note this method also allows for more sculptural effects to be achieved like spirals, bends, etc...

I have definitely chainsaw kerfed in hewing.

Some food for thought as I asses options for another approach to squaring this wood, though I will be definitely sticking with axes

If going down the "purest route" I totally understand your perspective and more than support it...Good for ya in keeping those skills alive...

If the primary goal is efficient and effective squaring of a log bolt into a useful timber for a project but do not want or have a way to get them to a mill logistically or for fiscal constrictions...the method offered in last post is (by far) the fastest and most accurate method of bringing a bolt of any species to square or other geometric shape...in my experience with a multitude of hewing methods (historical and/or contemporary.)

Regards,

j

Yep...me too, and I like that method for expediting the process...Excellent method!

It's neither the one nor the other.
Grabbing the chainsaw, it could be any cross cut saw but ok, to speed things along is fine but it does mean flipping the stem an extra time and getting it rightly aligned, making more or less sense depending on conditions innumerable, difficult to quantify. I always think its critical to set the log fast with dogs, line out perimeters of its beam inside and then cut two vertical and parallel sides without disturbing the log's position, no simple task that. It's another way of saying, is the method ideological or are there also practical reasons.Still I do count myself among those practitioners choosing a slightly different way of working than the one calculated in conventional terms.

Hi Cecile,

Thanks for the reply, and please indulge me if you don't mind? This is a topic I don't get to explore with too many that have your skill sets with hewing or perspective.

Take my words (please) from the academic perspective, and only challenging from this view point in trying to understand more, and/or form more lucid and coherent viewpoints of my own.

Thanks again, ahead of time...



So, we are on the same page on at least that point...

You can see the benefit and expeditious effect a hand or power saw has. Almost any type of cross cut saw works well...even a battery powered circular saw with a radius jig does the trick nicely if doing this a lot...

The joggles then can be made even closer together, if one chooses, with little extra work...



Ooh...???...I don't think that is even close to accurate or true, from my perspective of what is done, but that very well could have to do with our individual approach modality to setting up a hewing station.

I imagine (from your description) your approach is of course some form of Western or European method...?

From that perspective, I would agree that "flipping the stem" may seem like a necessity and also much added labor...the way you must be thinking of it...???

However, my approach to setting up hewing is a modern adaptation of acient Middle Eastern and Asian systems and approaches of not only a hewing station, but also the general staging of a given timber for layout of joinery...not just hewing...

The bolt (aka stem) layout is a cross on the end first, then a template is used (most often) to create the given geometry on the end of the bolt. Sometimes this is even a tapered post, or has something like a spiral or related challenging geometry to the project. Once the bolt is set up and snapped, the bolt can get moved without any great issue of losing layout, orientation, or even bothering to pin down well...No more so than you would be concerned with a timber before joinery is cut in it...

Does that make sense as described?



Agreed..."no simple task" at all, and way more the standard approach of fixing the bolt to a stationary stage while the work of hewing is performed on two adjacent parallel plans of a given bolt...

That is a standard "axe method" as you find anywhere something is hewed...even in Japan, though they (and I) often do it in bare feet for a better grip of the log and/or footing when employing such methods. When a rougher axed or hewn affect is desired then this approach is often the way to go, but now with the other method combined into this the ax strictly becomes a "finishing tool" alone...



That is interesting that you view yourself between the ideological and the modified while still willing to adapt hewing to your own personal dynamic. Which, in many ways, like all the traditional wood arts, they are very much an individual expression of body dynamic and personal approach, even when under the guise or perspective of a fully traditionally ideology...

Regards,

j

Jay, it says right there under my badge, " loc: The Netherlands". Why am I going to go squaring up like I'm a Turk or working on the Nara or something? I tested those waters, walked some deviant path-ways in my crazy youth, and found them dead ends. Still, I do maintain some hard to shake remnants - No purist me, cant afford it!
When I ever get the chance to do the blades of a wind-mill I guess what you say there about lay-out and working to the lines will no doubt come in handy, though the chance is small, me lacking the proper credentials and diplomas you gotta have in your pocket to get a gig like that in a place like this.
What I mean to say is here are some results coming in as the work progresses.

Thanks for sharing your perspectives. It is most appreciated!!!

I hope you get a chance to share in a Windmill project someday...That would be awesome!

I hear ya about the methods you choose to follow being where you are. "Tested waters," are often dark and don't always yield the expect results for many who try them, for others more seems to be revelled and/or of use to them. I have found after so many years that the methods are way more similar than different in most ways, so unless doing a museum grade demonstration, replication of restoration, I can effectively draw on a multitude of skill sets and understanding...I to "can't afford" to be a purest on most projects nor do they demand it to be so...

Those photos look great, I look forward to following along further as you share your progress...

In fact, I have given up on the axes more typical for the nearest places where axes are known, results being far to harsh, and finding Swedish axes working out better for this taxing robinia.

Beautiful work Ceicle...

Is this a true "winged" head with flat bevel to left or right?

Do you use just one size for all work, or progress through several?

Much thanks for sharing...!!!

j

Thank you Jay. Probably I have lain it out that poorly from the start so your inquiries will give me a way to fill in what's got left out. To begin I approached the robinia like I would have as if it was oak or sweet chestnut, or any number of woods, lets leave it at that, with my prescribed set-up, bandhacke, bundaxt, breitbeil, but after having worked a side or two it was clear the wood was not amenable. It's what I meant by saying the robinia is an unforgiving wood, every slightest deviation in the angle of each particular chop is doubly accentuated on the wood's surface. I have never seen a thing like it, just terrible.
So I hung those axes up and went to experimenting. First I chose the axe that was closest conceptually to the Austrian breitbeil which I love so much. It may well be what you call winged head, maybe coming from another American term, goosewing. It is much smaller, lighter and more curvy which is to say, arching in the cutting edge's length and with a big old sweep, heel to toe on the back-side ie flat side. And it was an improvement, clear to see in the first two in the series of four pictures here above the cuts transverse to the grain. Still, the result was to much axe, not enough of the wood for me to accept, these sharp cuts at the termination of every chop are disturbing to my eye and somewhat unique to the wood. Not that such traces don't occur in other woods but when the wood is less hard there is more possibility of the , swing, cut, follow through action. Here the swing gets stuck in its tracks. Not impossible to follow through, you must make only the finest of shavings to do it. In that way this wood it very good for helping to build axe skills. Any way, I'm also concerned with axe progress so moved on to the sparrbila



and the outcome is there in the two pictures following and this was better on all accounts or at least more to my liking. This axe, one with a double bevel and much mass.
The last picture though is the work of another Swedish axe called Tjälyxa. It's a late and cheaper to produce version of the classic 1700 timmerbila. The wood gets worked again transverse to the grain almost a necessity on these tall sides where it can otherwise over power and have its way with you.

Hi Cecile,

I'm waiting for more to come on this topic from you...!!!

I will say now, that I agree, this is actually a good wood to hone one's skills on, as it forces you to have attention to detail, adapt your swing (and tool) to the give grain of a section. It also insists on having razor sharp edges...!!!

Thanks for this post topic and my befuddled and many questions...

Ok, then it makes it worth continued posting-ups.
Since you bring up sharpening, my sources inform me, you know, through channels, that this wood is particularly abrasive and dulls edges, that it has a relatively high silica content. Can you, (anyone) confirm? oao.

Hi Cecile,

That is a excellent direct question...Thank you.

I'm not near all my books at the moment...but I think Hoadley's "Understanding Wood" may mention it or the Genus having such a characteristic...???...but can state for sure.

I think most of my assertions of this is from personal direct experience and speaking with others like yourself, who actually take the time understand the species more empirically themselves.

Since you asked (and I haven't look at this topic in a while...LOL) some quick searches refreshed my understanding:

Silica (SiO2) content in wood species is determined by incineration of a wood sample and weighing ash for the differential between the volatile compound silicon tetrafluoride (SiF4) following the Tappi Standard T-15 and ASTM Standard D 1102...as I understand it...???...but there could be others modalities of testing outside my scope of understanding? I will share that these in depth laboratory analyses are way outside my world of expertise or ability to do myself and I leave it to others to do such testing.

I understand that temperate forest species are less prone to higher silica content than tropical and that equal to or greater than 0.5% silica in wood is the harmful range to most edged tools (...it would seem??)...If Robinie has this range in some population samples is not confirmed scientifically from what I just found with a quick search.

It has been compared to Angelique (Dicorynia guianensis) which does have high silica content as a tropical species ( U.S. FOREST SERVICE RESEARCH NOTE FPL-07...ts Technologist ), yet mineral inclusion of silica where not observed by H.G. Richter and M.J. Dallwitz ( Commercial timbers H.G. Richter and M.J. Dallwitz Robinia pseudoacacia L. (Robinie, black locust) .)

Thus far, with this current quick search, I haven't found specific testing or papers related to silica content as would be measured (scientifically) by any of the recognised testing modalities or standards as thus described.

The folks at Rockbridge Trees state: " For woodworkers, the rot resistance comes from the silica deposits in the wood..." yet they provide no resource reference to this determination and could just be repeating information from other unconfirmed sources?

Because the Robinia ssp can and often does grow under adverse edaphic conditions, which many rot resistant tree species often due...silica content being higher could be a result of this or just a presumption? I question my own full understanding of this now myself...other than my empirical determination that know tropical species with high silica content "feel and act" much like Locust...at least to me it does?

I did further learn on this search that older trees do indeed have better durability than juvenile (under ten years) like many other rot resistant species of tree. So felling cycles are well advised to exceed this in good forestry management plans. Locust Borer (Megacyllene robiniae), susceptibility to "witches broom" (virus Cholorogenus robinia) as well as heartwood/canker diseases from fungal infection could also effect the silica and/or rot resistant characteristics of a given population within a forest? Yet this seems to be more about lumber yield issues rather than affecting decay resistance. I have experienced, read (and heard) that stresses like this can enhance such decay resistance in many species, but no scientific papers at this time to support that supposition...just my own experiences with wood.

Thanks for asking the question...

j

Do you run into any steekbijls in the Netherlands?

I am beginning to think that in one way or that other way there is something to the claim that robinia, (black locust) is more abrasive than average. Way back at the beginning it struck me how blindingly polished the bevels of the axes were coming of the wood after working it and do find that frequent sharpening makes the work go markedly better, but then again doesn't it always.
Dave, I guess you are talking about the one that is unique to the Dutch and is called here a snik. Steekbijl is the Dutch name for what the Germans call strossaxt the Scandinavians call Stikkøksa French a demi bisaigue. While they're known in the Netherlands you would sooner find a carpenter with a slick than one of these. Not that a snik is so common but I do come across them from time to time usually associated with wind-mill construction. It is hard to find much on internet so I post over some examples Foto: Roald Renmælmo
http://igem.adlibsoft.com/wwwopacx/wwwop...8jwco5e0rkT.jpg
Two years back I came across two nice ones up for sale but passed up the chance to get them in my grubby hands.

Interesting. I'm talking about the one in the top of that photo. I was originally told it was called a snik, but a friend says they are called steekbijl. He has had a couple of them forged by a blacksmith. When I do a Google search for steekbijl, all I get are photos of the German style tool. Despite the extensive Dutch buildings in New York State, only a few have been found there.

In the visible photo there are two sniks, the upper one is really the standard form in every way, cutting edge length, grip, composition... the second one is pretty unique being so broad like that. These are from a collection in Sweden all made by the same tool maker out of Amsterdam in the 17th century so the condition they are in is exceptional. I would be curious to know, if examples of sniks are found in New York is the axe also known? These axes, obvious relation to the snik, are also uniquely Dutch in character dating from similar time.
The snik from the link is with a right angle tang set in a wood grip, the economy version and nowhere near as nice as the forged grips.
As for the name, I wont say steekbijl is wrong, just sloppy and I see it used in that way sometimes. Obviously the tools are related, steekbijl derived very likely from the snik as a reduced version.
Both the snik and axe like that are associated with wind-mill building and/or boat building more so than regular carpentry.

More to the topic at hand - don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing anyone out of hand - I have a section of robinia that has gotten itself extra dried out, ( coming from some significant splitting along the grain up from the but as a result of less than careful felling, and to be fair some ingrown deficiencies of the wood itself all contributing to and reinforcing one another in a feed-back loop leading to a condition deviating from the norm which in this instance, is pretty workable wood ) at any rate, fortunate or not, it's a lesson in the importance, really critical necessity, of working the wood while the moisture content is high, particularly so because of the fibrous nature of robinia combined with work that is primarily in the length direction which is to say, chopping a mortise, for example would not pose the same difficulties in similarly dried out wood.