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#24541 - 10/04/10 04:43 PM Re: historic hewing questionnaire ***** [Re: northern hewer]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 295
Loc: the Netherlands
Hi,
this question from NH about slate roofing was never addressed so here is my poor response. Although my experience is with tile not slate, and this picture * is not of the valley. Regardless, I have done something similar in a valley, lining it with lead like you saw in the picture and the principle is pretty straight forward, although at a valley the slate would overlap the lead.

Greetings,

Don

*© Architekt Dipl.-Ing. (FH) Marc Sattel


Edited by Cecile en Don Wa (10/04/10 04:48 PM)
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#24556 - 10/06/10 12:00 PM Re: historic hewing questionnaire
Waccabuc Offline
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Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Waccabuc, NY (NYC Metro area)
NH,
If the slates are sound and good for more years of protecting from the weather, they will be removable with care and some skill that is simple to learn, then after valley flashing is properly replaced the slates can be re-installed. Removing and re-installing good slates won't "spoil the whole roof". The pitch of the roof, and size and thickness of the slates, and the length of the valleys will determine the ladders, planks, padding, scaffolding etc he'll need. Don't work up there when the slates are wet - very slippery!
Of course the roof sheathing and rafters are to be checked for soundness and proper nailing. If the slates are all the same size you don’t have to keep them in order of removal. You're wise to get some more sound slates, new or old, closely matched in color of the same thickness and the same size or larger to replace a few you might break. Hold a removed slate up with one hand and tap it lightly on a face with a hammer. If it rings it's good, if it thuds it's mush and is good for roadbed material.
I prefer to make valley flashing pcs of 24" x 10' cold rolled (hard) copper or lead coated copper, 16oz or 20 oz per sq ft. I'll use lead sheet, 2.5lb or 4lb per sq ft for step flashing or chimney counterflashing or cap flashing and pans, but very rarely for valleys. Lead is available 4' x4' and 4' x5'. It is dense and easy to form, but doesn't hold to a bent profile like hard copper will. You can bend the lead by hand (wear gloves and wash your hands before you eat lunch) but you'll need a brake to bend the cold rolled.
Pull out all nails that held down old valley flashing. Install 30# felt in the length of the valley, fasten w copper nails. Valley flashings to be bent in the shape of a W, with hems at the outer edges. The inverted ^ at the center has 1" legs and it sticks up to the sky, allowing expansion/contraction of the metal. Then the wings or outer legs of the W lie flat onto the roof planes and are c. 10" wide. The outside edges get another bend, or hem, 3/4" - 1" wide (the entire 10' length) inward onto the top (sky side) of the 10" wide wings c. 180 degrees but not closed tight. This prevents water from running beyond the edge, plus cleats hook into it at 12" oc to hold flashing in place and to have NO NAILS PUNCTURE THE VALLEY FLASHING except one copper nail at each top corner to hold it. Cleats are same metal, 2.5" x 4" and are nailed w (2) copper nails to the roof deck just outside the valley, one end bent as a tab to grip inside the hem, the other end tab bent up, over, and flat down to cover the 2 nail heads.
Just as the metal flashing is to be installed, roll out red rosin paper to isolate the metal from the felt ("tar paper") so flashing metal will slide/move rather than get cemented to the "tar". The next flashing sheet up the valley overlaps the first by 6" with its hems inside the hems of the 1st sheet. Keep the water in the valley and flowing downward, right?
This new work should have no need for caulks or mastic or roof cement. To temp repair an existing leaking valley (or around chimneys) these rarely are 100% effective regardless of how much is gobbed on, unless you can see the damaged areas of eroded and corroded lines , tears and pinholes in the metal and fill and seal them. Re-do annually until you can afford to properly re-flash.
Two books w rules, specs, pics and drawings: "The Slate Book" and "Copper and Common Sense".
If you have to buy new slates any N American slate will be good for 100+ yrs, except PA slate good for 50 yrs - not worth the slightly cheaper price IMO.

Tools: you'll at least need a slate ripper, and good to get a slate hammer. New or used made by Stortz Co Philadelphia PA are excellent. If you have to cut or trim slates as you install them over the valley flashing sides you'll need a slate cutter. Nail holes are best "punched" rather than drilled. Punch holes from the back of the slate, using the slate hammer point or a nail set as a fine punch. Slate cutters usually have a punch point too. Slates hang on two, and only two copper nails, HUNG, not nailed down tight. A wide tipped flat bar is very useful. I am still using my 35 yr old American made Stanley Wonder Bar. So much better than the recently Mexican made, or is Stanley having them made in China now ? - prob worse.

Normal overlap of next course is Exposure plus 2" (e.g. 9" exposure requires a 20" long slate). Wear gloves and a respirator when removing existing slates and vacuum cleaning or sweeping existing felt and/or roof deck. Wear tough old pants and sneakers or boots w rubbery soles for a good grip. Prepare to get real dirty. Like most good quality construction work it's the 3 Ds, Detailed, Dirty and Dangerous. Could we add Difficult? not if you follow the rules and are prepared.
If you work smart and safe you'll have no need for good luck, except for the weather, and we can't do anything about that.

Glad to be of help Richard. I appreciate your hosting us at TTRAG in Morristown and Upper Canada Village. I learned lots at the Conference and tours. I still play one my Bobby Watt CDs every week.
Steve Miller
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#24557 - 10/06/10 12:18 PM Re: historic hewing questionnaire
Waccabuc Offline
Member

Registered: 10/16/07
Posts: 112
Loc: Waccabuc, NY (NYC Metro area)
To Don,
In my limited experience with flat tiles on sloped roofs the rules and techniques are basically the same, although in some details of roof tile installation Portland cement mortar is used for filling, esp at rake edges.
Nice picture with the lead step and counter flashings. Good work. Covering the roof planes is straightforward and easy to learn and do well. Using proper techniques and materials for flashing edges, intersectons, valleys etc is where excellence in attention to detail is required and what will insure a good effective job well done. More than half of our roof work over 39 yrs is replacement and or repair of faulty flashing work. Could have, should have been done right the first time.
I enjoy seeing your creative work on your blog. Do you still need a smart farm dog? one of my Aussies? I have 3 pups available.
Steve
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#24565 - 10/06/10 09:19 PM Re: historic hewing questionnaire
northern hewer Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 1122
Hello everyone tonight:

Well thanks Steve for all that information on repairs to the slate roof's flashing, and I will relay your remarks to my son.

also thanks for your kind remarks, hosting you guys was one of the highlighrts of my career, it makes me feel good that I had something that I could share and be enjoyed by the TTRAG group who are all pretty knowledgeable people and great to have met.

Right now I am in the midst of the reconstruction of 2 period cannon bases that use 6" by 12" white oak sections, I will also need the services of a blacksmith to do period metal work It will be nice to get back in the groove so to speak.

You know and I am addressing those that are looking in tonight and that maybe need employment or ideas, you guys need to expand your knowledge base outside of building homes, timberframing is only part of what you can do with heavy timber, historic millwrighting, Historic mills, historic roads\bridge construction, even period fencing, repairing period machinery--even slate roofs like we talked about above--I could go on but I believe you get the drift.

I have been party to many and varied projects from modern to extremely historic--for instance restoring churches, print shop;s, tin shops, barns, drivesheds, smokehouses, one year I was put in charge of constructing a very modern food outlet, another I worked inside a modern store outlet and I must say that moving back and forth between the 2 mediums seemed to recharge my batteries.

I even did a lttle farming where I raised my family

Well good luck to you all, maybe my remaks will help some especially when you are still young enough to be able to learn more--be open and reseptive to new ideas don't stagnate in one area move on learn, move back if you need to, listen be like to wise old owl in the tree

NH

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#24629 - 10/20/10 04:33 AM Re: historic hewing questionnaire
ghdfans2010 Offline
Member

Registered: 07/13/10
Posts: 2
Loc: VA
Hello! I am new here! That's very nice that I can find this forum from google. I found many useful info and funny stories here! I will come again.
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#24636 - 10/21/10 08:52 AM Re: historic hewing questionnaire
Housewright Offline
Member

Registered: 02/16/06
Posts: 332
Loc: Waldoboro, Maine
Hi NH;

Would there be much to see at Upper Canada Village whiltraveling to or from the conference at Montebello?

Thanks;
Jim
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"Heavy timber framing is not a lost art" Fred Hodgson, 1909

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#24637 - 10/21/10 08:57 AM Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: Housewright]
Happy Birthday daiku Offline

Member

Registered: 04/16/02
Posts: 893
Loc: Minneapolis, Minnesota
Originally Posted By: Housewright
Hi NH;

Would there be much to see at Upper Canada Village whiltraveling to or from the conference at Montebello?

Thanks;
Jim


Definitely worth a stop. The sawmill is particularly cool. CB.
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#24639 - 10/21/10 10:04 AM Re: historic hewing questionnaire [Re: daiku]
Robert Leslie Offline
Member

Registered: 10/01/07
Posts: 8
Loc: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
I justed checked the UCV website and hours of operation were not clear so I called St. Lawrence Parks. Access is now Mon. - Fri. from 10:00 to 3:00 to street view only. No building access. This ends Oct. 29 when they close to prep for winter schedule. There is a toll free # to confirm at http://www.uppercanadavillage.com/10090701.htm.

Rob

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#24647 - 10/22/10 08:57 PM Re: historic hewing questionnaire
northern hewer Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 1122
Hi everyone tonight

Unfortunately the buildings in UCV are now closed for the winter season, and walking through the site is on for a while I am not sure for how long, it seems that each year with budget restraints the open season shrinks somewhat, it closed this year on Thanksgiving Sunday.

There is alot to see when things are going during the open season, 3 waterpowered mills, one steam powered (the grist mill), the wollen mill (water powered), and of course my favourite the 1848 waterpowered Muley saw mill.

I posted some pictures of the reconstruction of the sawmill's waterbarrel and drive axle, which took place about 6 or 7 years ago now. The reconstruction of the 12 " oak driveaxle with its offset crank was in itself a major part because it was held in place with hot babbet poured around its wings held in place with the oak wood of the shaft and original wrought iron rings on tapered turned wood seatings.

I had offered to make a presentation to the TTRAG on the Mulley Mill and its reconstruction 2 or 3 years ago now which would have been a lecture along with a slide presentation but was rejected at that time.

I won't be at the conference in Montebello unfortunately but I will be thinking of all you guys, no doubt Will and Joel have set up a good itinerary

enjoy

NH

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#24763 - 11/21/10 02:24 PM Re: historic hewing questionnaire
northern hewer Offline
Member

Registered: 03/17/02
Posts: 1122
Hello everyone tonight:

Well its been a while since I have posted but thought that an update on the Wooden Garrison Carriages reconstruction for the city of Cornwall Ontario is progressing.

The first unit is approaching completion-- approx 1 month of work in my shop

The frame is 6" white oak sections held together with long 3\4" cold rolled steel rods.

I will try and post some pics eventually

The casted barrels weigh close to 2 tons that are supported by these wood bases.

NH

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