Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#34539 - 08/22/18 05:50 AM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Jon Senior]
TIMBEAL Offline
Member

Registered: 12/10/07
Posts: 1882
Loc: Maine
On the scale of things, you are so most correct Cecile. As for Jay's perfumed and fluffy presentation its almost like living a dream, thanks Jay.

Somewhere in the bowels of the forum I have documented a timber frame build by my one of my grandfathers in the early 1950's, he was still building in timber frame mode, if I recall the pegs were broom handles cut down, no joke. The building is still standing today. A little tidbit for you Jay, of what lies between the lines.

Top
#34540 - 08/22/18 07:01 PM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 534
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa
...It's not subject to speculation or opinion because the figures are kept and according to Hannes this kind of construction makes up about 0,01 percent of all construction...


LOL...As "wordy" as I can be...I still failed to clarify the difference between comparative amounts built in the contemporary to other forms of construction...and...consistent, unbroken knowledge base within the craft and regional varablities as well...

I would not argue we don't now have the Lion's share of construction. Of course we don't as what we do isn't industrialized...however the popularity is growing, along with more interest in it each year and appreciation for it...

Originally Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa
...I believe that the German case represents the high end as well...


Before I disagree emphatically...I should ask why you think this is the case with your understanding of the craft?

Do you know the actual comparatives in all the European countries from actual observation, correspondence, intense study, client feedback, or other more in depth examination?

Have you studied visited and/or corresponded with practitioners from other countries, and again for how long?

How many cultures have you visited, studied and for how long?

Originally Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa
...When the population a species of animal reaches a similar decline we speak of it as extinct...


Being a Zoology-Ethology major in college and having worked as a Field Ecologist, Husbandrist and Zookeeper I am sorry that isn't correct at all...

Extinct means...goan...nonexistent...no forms found in the wild or captivity. Unless clearly designated extinct in wild populations only.

So, if you are making a comparative between timber framing and animals...Timber framing isn't even "threatened" or "rare." To suggest that is obtuse.

Using the "animal" comparative metaphor would place timber framing into the class of variably site specific in population density. Just today I walked a street to a restoration project where over 70% of the homes are timber framed. I can suggest you take a "google earth tour of rural Japan or Korea...where that number is in the 90% to 100% number and new structures in many region of these countries can reach 50% to 80% depending on location...Similar number in parts of China, Madagascar, Indonesian, India...and so on...

Originally Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa
... so I disagree with both Tim's idea of a resuscitation and Jay's of a continuation. My sense is more of an externally induced life support condition. ...


That, at best, is a very unsubstantiated opinion, and not grounded on a globale, let alone regionally specific perspective of the craft either historically or in the contemporary...

Tim's viewpoint of "resuscitation" is very accurate in many regards but belaboring those examples would make this post "wordy" that it already is...LOL...We can agree to disagree on this point, as you love the craft and so do the rest of us...That's what's important! Just by you practicing it is a win-win from my perspective!!

Regards,

j
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34541 - 08/22/18 07:13 PM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: TIMBEAL]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 534
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
On the scale of things, you are so most correct Cecile. As for Jay's perfumed and fluffy presentation its almost like living a dream, thanks Jay.


Thank's Tim...You are most welcome!

LOL...I am to pleased to give anyone a "dream" or "perfumed and fluffy presentation" of our craft!!!...

What's important...is keep spreading the word!!! And enjoying what you do!!

Originally Posted By: TIMBEAL
Somewhere in the bowels of the forum I have documented a timber frame build by my one of my grandfathers in the early 1950's, he was still building in timber frame mode, if I recall the pegs were broom handles cut down, no joke. The building is still standing today. A little tidbit for you Jay, of what lies between the lines...


Awesome!!!

Thanks for sharing that...!!!

I would suggest it also kind of makes my point to a degree doesn't it?

The craft maybe less practiced in most industrialized countries...No doubt, but its not rare by any stretch of the imagination...At least not in my world at all. Nor growing less in popularity (I'm overwhelmed with work!!!)

If one actually spends time (or decades) traveling and studying the craft in other countries and/or documentation, along with the human experience of exchange...It can be called common...

Even a communist country like China has listened to UNESCO and made certain regions world heritage sites...Go ahead and try to build something in those communities that does not sit on stone plinth foundation and be a timber frame structure...It is the complete opposite to Cecil's 0.01%
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34542 - 08/23/18 03:00 AM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Jon Senior]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 295
Loc: the Netherlands
We all know the saying, "He can't see the forest for the trees." It's nice down there in the thick of it isn't it , Jay.
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34544 - 08/23/18 09:20 PM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Jon Senior]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 534
Loc: Vermont
Hi Cecile...

LOL...It is "thick" at times...both the view and my skull I've been told...

I do here you undertone, that there are "deserts" where our craft is greatly lacking. No disagreement there. Just leaves more work for us to do...

Cheers,

j
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34546 - 08/24/18 08:34 AM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Jon Senior]
Jim Rogers Online   confused

Member

Registered: 03/14/02
Posts: 1639
Loc: Georgetown, MA, USA
At Heartwood school yesterday, I asked a timber framing instructor which order he does his mortise peg holes.
His comment that if you bore the peg hole first and then the mortise you don't have to clean out the "blow out" that happens in the mortise when the peg hole bit breaks the first surface of the inside of the mortise.
Doesn't seem like a big deal until you consider if you have hundreds of mortises in a frame and you have to spend time cleaning out the chips that blow out in each one of them. It could add up to a considerable amount of "clean up" time.
Jim Rogers
_________________________
Whatever you do, have fun doing it!

Top
#34547 - 08/25/18 09:28 AM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Jon Senior]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 295
Loc: the Netherlands
Here is a section out of the great website from Calame which is dialing in on the mortise in its French iteration, http://www.en.charpentiers.culture.fr/tr...hepiecesofwood# While there is evidence of the 30 mm mortise, personally I find no indication that drilling the mortise-side peg hole first is going on. Jon, I think what you have been taught is a deviation from normal or the technique as it is widely practiced even in France. Of course this is not to make a judgement of the rational you use to explain drilling the peg hole at the earliest possible moment.
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34548 - 08/26/18 04:48 PM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Jon Senior]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 534
Loc: Vermont
Thanks Cecile...Great link!!!
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34549 - 08/26/18 04:57 PM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Jim Rogers]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 534
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Jim Rogers
At Heartwood school yesterday, I asked a timber framing instructor which order he does his mortise peg holes.
His comment that if you bore the peg hole first and then the mortise you don't have to clean out the "blow out" that happens in the mortise when the peg hole bit breaks the first surface of the inside of the mortise...


I still stand on my original post comments that this is not a historical or contemporary common standard.

I would also suggest again the amount of work to drill through more wood (though perhaps not Jon's example of timber size...???) is going to be more labor intensive than placing a sacrificial block of wood inside a mortise to mitigate "blowout" (which is our standard when really worried about it or if a person is having a challenge with this happening and/or just pay more attention to the force that is being applied during the boring process.

Sharp, properly maintained and used drill bits (T-auger or modern) should not "blow out" the inside check of a mortise at all or badly enough to be a concern...nor require any significant clean up. I would suggest that if this is taking place it is an operational error and not a need to change or adjust approach modality...

Just my observations on the subject, but still an interesting topic to explore...


Edited by Jay White Cloud (08/26/18 04:58 PM)
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34550 - 08/27/18 08:53 AM Re: Joint cutting - Process [Re: Jon Senior]
Will B Offline

Member

Registered: 10/02/02
Posts: 197
Loc: Massachusetts
Jim,
I'm fairly certain that Dave's preference to drill the hole first only applies when using a chain mortiser, for the reasons stated earlier, and probably an electric drill for the pin.
_________________________
Will
www.heartwoodschool.com

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  Jim Rogers, mdfinc 
Newest Members
Tronmega, imago, Pogodno, Mitersawjudge, snekkerbuse
4866 Registered Users