Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#34568 - 09/03/18 02:49 AM Re: Black Locust [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 534
Loc: Vermont
Hi Cecile,

I'm waiting for more to come on this topic from you...!!!

I will say now, that I agree, this is actually a good wood to hone one's skills on, as it forces you to have attention to detail, adapt your swing (and tool) to the give grain of a section. It also insists on having razor sharp edges...!!!

Thanks for this post topic and my befuddled and many questions...
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34569 - 09/03/18 07:04 AM Re: Black Locust [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 295
Loc: the Netherlands
Ok, then it makes it worth continued posting-ups.
Since you bring up sharpening, my sources inform me, you know, through channels, that this wood is particularly abrasive and dulls edges, that it has a relatively high silica content. Can you, (anyone) confirm? oao.
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34570 - 09/03/18 02:54 PM Re: Black Locust [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Jay White Cloud Offline
Member

Registered: 11/06/08
Posts: 534
Loc: Vermont
Originally Posted By: Cecile en Don Wa
...that it has a relatively high silica content. Can you, (anyone) confirm? oao.


Hi Cecile,

That is a excellent direct question...Thank you.

I'm not near all my books at the moment...but I think Hoadley's "Understanding Wood" may mention it or the Genus having such a characteristic...???...but can state for sure.

I think most of my assertions of this is from personal direct experience and speaking with others like yourself, who actually take the time understand the species more empirically themselves.

Since you asked (and I haven't look at this topic in a while...LOL) some quick searches refreshed my understanding:

Silica (SiO2) content in wood species is determined by incineration of a wood sample and weighing ash for the differential between the volatile compound silicon tetrafluoride (SiF4) following the Tappi Standard T-15 and ASTM Standard D 1102...as I understand it...???...but there could be others modalities of testing outside my scope of understanding? I will share that these in depth laboratory analyses are way outside my world of expertise or ability to do myself and I leave it to others to do such testing.

I understand that temperate forest species are less prone to higher silica content than tropical and that equal to or greater than 0.5% silica in wood is the harmful range to most edged tools (...it would seem??)...If Robinie has this range in some population samples is not confirmed scientifically from what I just found with a quick search.

It has been compared to Angelique (Dicorynia guianensis) which does have high silica content as a tropical species ( U.S. FOREST SERVICE RESEARCH NOTE FPL-07...ts Technologist ), yet mineral inclusion of silica where not observed by H.G. Richter and M.J. Dallwitz ( Commercial timbers H.G. Richter and M.J. Dallwitz Robinia pseudoacacia L. (Robinie, black locust) .)

Thus far, with this current quick search, I haven't found specific testing or papers related to silica content as would be measured (scientifically) by any of the recognised testing modalities or standards as thus described.

The folks at Rockbridge Trees state: " For woodworkers, the rot resistance comes from the silica deposits in the wood..." yet they provide no resource reference to this determination and could just be repeating information from other unconfirmed sources?

Because the Robinia ssp can and often does grow under adverse edaphic conditions, which many rot resistant tree species often due...silica content being higher could be a result of this or just a presumption? I question my own full understanding of this now myself...other than my empirical determination that know tropical species with high silica content "feel and act" much like Locust...at least to me it does?

I did further learn on this search that older trees do indeed have better durability than juvenile (under ten years) like many other rot resistant species of tree. So felling cycles are well advised to exceed this in good forestry management plans. Locust Borer (Megacyllene robiniae), susceptibility to "witches broom" (virus Cholorogenus robinia) as well as heartwood/canker diseases from fungal infection could also effect the silica and/or rot resistant characteristics of a given population within a forest? Yet this seems to be more about lumber yield issues rather than affecting decay resistance. I have experienced, read (and heard) that stresses like this can enhance such decay resistance in many species, but no scientific papers at this time to support that supposition...just my own experiences with wood.

Thanks for asking the question...

j






Edited by Jay White Cloud (09/03/18 02:59 PM)
_________________________
http://about.me/tosatomo

Top
#34571 - 09/03/18 08:34 PM Re: Black Locust [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Dave Shepard Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 717
Loc: Alford, MA
Do you run into any steekbijls in the Netherlands?
_________________________
Member, Timber Framers Guild

Top
#34572 - 09/04/18 02:46 AM Re: Black Locust [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 295
Loc: the Netherlands
I am beginning to think that in one way or that other way there is something to the claim that robinia, (black locust) is more abrasive than average. Way back at the beginning it struck me how blindingly polished the bevels of the axes were coming of the wood after working it and do find that frequent sharpening makes the work go markedly better, but then again doesn't it always.
Dave, I guess you are talking about the one that is unique to the Dutch and is called here a snik. Steekbijl is the Dutch name for what the Germans call strossaxt the Scandinavians call Stikkøksa French a demi bisaigue. While they're known in the Netherlands you would sooner find a carpenter with a slick than one of these. Not that a snik is so common but I do come across them from time to time usually associated with wind-mill construction. It is hard to find much on internet so I post over some examples Foto: Roald Renmælmo
http://igem.adlibsoft.com/wwwopacx/wwwop...8jwco5e0rkT.jpg
Two years back I came across two nice ones up for sale but passed up the chance to get them in my grubby hands.


Edited by Cecile en Don Wa (09/04/18 02:51 AM)
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34573 - 09/04/18 11:23 AM Re: Black Locust [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Dave Shepard Online   content
Member

Registered: 02/19/06
Posts: 717
Loc: Alford, MA
Interesting. I'm talking about the one in the top of that photo. I was originally told it was called a snik, but a friend says they are called steekbijl. He has had a couple of them forged by a blacksmith. When I do a Google search for steekbijl, all I get are photos of the German style tool. Despite the extensive Dutch buildings in New York State, only a few have been found there.
_________________________
Member, Timber Framers Guild

Top
#34574 - 09/04/18 03:46 PM Re: Black Locust [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 295
Loc: the Netherlands
In the visible photo there are two sniks, the upper one is really the standard form in every way, cutting edge length, grip, composition... the second one is pretty unique being so broad like that. These are from a collection in Sweden all made by the same tool maker out of Amsterdam in the 17th century so the condition they are in is exceptional. I would be curious to know, if examples of sniks are found in New York is the axe also known? These axes, obvious relation to the snik, are also uniquely Dutch in character dating from similar time.
The snik from the link is with a right angle tang set in a wood grip, the economy version and nowhere near as nice as the forged grips.
As for the name, I wont say steekbijl is wrong, just sloppy and I see it used in that way sometimes. Obviously the tools are related, steekbijl derived very likely from the snik as a reduced version.
Both the snik and axe like that are associated with wind-mill building and/or boat building more so than regular carpentry.
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
#34575 - 09/06/18 06:33 AM Re: Black Locust [Re: Cecile en Don Wa]
Cecile en Don Wa Offline
Member

Registered: 08/08/09
Posts: 295
Loc: the Netherlands
More to the topic at hand - don't get me wrong, I'm not dismissing anyone out of hand - I have a section of robinia that has gotten itself extra dried out, ( coming from some significant splitting along the grain up from the but as a result of less than careful felling, and to be fair some ingrown deficiencies of the wood itself all contributing to and reinforcing one another in a feed-back loop leading to a condition deviating from the norm which in this instance, is pretty workable wood ) at any rate, fortunate or not, it's a lesson in the importance, really critical necessity, of working the wood while the moisture content is high, particularly so because of the fibrous nature of robinia combined with work that is primarily in the length direction which is to say, chopping a mortise, for example would not pose the same difficulties in similarly dried out wood.
_________________________
https://ernestdubois.wordpress.com/

Top
Page 3 of 3 < 1 2 3

Moderator:  Jim Rogers, mdfinc 
Newest Members
Tronmega, imago, Pogodno, Mitersawjudge, snekkerbuse
4866 Registered Users